I have no idea what you are talking about. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can you elaborate, please? (Bet you don't get asked to do that many times).
I will try to explain..without being too long-winded
When I first discovered DB, I thought I had a WAW bc I didn't know of the A. When I confirmed the A, everyone here told me it doesn't change the DB approach I had been following. I agree, because DB is all about things you CAN control (yourself) and affairs are not under that umbrella. For this reason, I tried not to get hung up on it, used it as intel for my own protection, and marched on.
The problem is that there is starting to be a huge gap in mind about how I would be proceeding if my W was WAW vs. WW (and she is CLEARLY WW, I am way past debating that, don't worry). Your last post really reinforced how much I should be assuming my W has nefarious intentions. If I had a hypothetical WAW who wanted to join one of my GAL activities, I might think "O she is interested in my new life and even cautiously wondering if she wants to be a part of it; the DB might be working". Instead, I have a WW who is apparently just trying to keep me in her clutches so she can control me and I cannot truly escape the hurt and pain she has caused me.
I feel I am losing sight of what I'm working toward. What are the goals and checkpoints I am trying to reach? The positive signs MWD says to look for in DR seem like they don't apply; I can't trust them and they're not what they look like (see the GAL example above). She emphasizes the importance of recognizing baby steps--they are the compass that shows you are going in the right direction and keeps you motivated. I need a new compass. A lot of the original goals I had written down seem stupid or impossible now bc my W is WW. My only goal now (aside from GAL) is to change the dynamics and regain my control, but to what end? And what are the signs of progress? When do I stop assuming the worst? You say things will change and she will respect me. Just magically, she will no longer be a selfish person who doesn't care about me? It seems that waywardness is not a spell that can just be broken, it is more like a serious disease. Thus, the DB approach cannot be the same. You can't just ignore the A/waywardness. What am I missing?
M: 26 W: 26 M: 1.5 T: 3 No kids BD: 31 March 2018
W's affair began: 23 March 2018 Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018 Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018 Ended in-house separation: July 2018
You're not missing anything. Most people who come here desperately want to reconcile and they don't realize their own desperation is one of their biggest obstacles. That's why I'm a big proponent of ditching the offending spouse, building a great life for yourself, and then see what happens. My guess is that most people would decide they don't need a cheater in their life.
I'm not trying to be an @sshole, and I'm not anti-marriage, but I think few people are really willing to face the reality of their situation. In my opinion, waking up puts you in the driver's seat. After all, it's your life.
In the true DB approach yes you can ignore it. sandi doesn't agree with that approach for WWs, and since she was one I would tend to lean towards her way of dealing with it. I felt in your sitch that it was better to just wait it out since I just don't see that ill conceived A going very far. I know when I was 19 I moved on fairly quickly. I can't imagine standing still for very long for an older, married woman. 19 year-old dude, typically, aren't looking for long term. In fact, based on how your W is behaving I'd guess she has already received this message from the OB (still can't call him OM!). Since she seems to so intent on you not getting fed up and going anywhere.
But I defer to sandi. I've never been a WW.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She wants to make sure the "branch" she's jumping on now won't break, so she continues to hold onto you "just in case."
(fyi, a 19 year-old branch is definitely going to break)
She knows you won't break. Why? you've proven it over, and over, and over again.
If you want change for both yourself and your R, you need to break the branch and take away her safety.
Everything WW just relayed to you falls under either A: temp-checking, or B: Seed planting manipulation.
She wants you to tell her you're ready to start dating so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she's doing to you. She literally thinks that she will be able to continue to have the sex with the young buck and you will be there for the rest of the R stuff
She clearly doesn't want to kick you to the curb; she wants to keep you around and still do whatever else she feels like and you're letting her.
When you are truly ready to "drop the rope" or, in my previous analogy, "break your branch," that is when you will truly start to see positive change for yourself, which needs to be where your focus is right now
If you want to know what that looks like on her end, I'll tell you:
1: You drop the rope (If it's me, I call her out right there about the A and let her sit in her own S**t)
2: She does 1 of 2 things: A: has a complete meltdown; begs for you back right off the bat. You start going from there because now you guys are on even ground.
B: Has a complete meltdown, runs to 19yo.
He just wants one thing (remember being 19?) which is why they are together. You are the R piece still, and you are gone, so now he has to pick up all the rest of the stuff, which he doesn't want to do.
Things fall apart around her and she either comes crawling back to you (you've been working on becoming a man only a fool would leave) or jumps to the next branch (not your circus, not your monkey, not your problem).
Goal with a WW is that YOU take care of YOU first. She's trying to let you down gently, but it's not for you. It's so she doesn't have to feel like garbage about what she did. She'll try to throw it back in your face, telling you that it's your fault or some other excuse, but she's a big girl and she knows right from wrong and you tell her that!
Remember: being cheated on is never the LBS's fault. It's not on you, man, It's on her! The R getting to this point might be on both of you, but the A, that's her burden to bear.
I tried to address these concerns in my thread, Help for the Newcomer LBH with a WW. The links are at the bottom of first page in Sandi's Rules thread.
I think I give a tougher love approach, while still remaining in the bounds of what is presented in the DR book. What many people seem to miss is the fact that MWD says that both spouses have to be willing to save the MR. Yes, there is a section about affairs. There's one about MLC. However, she lumps the WAW and those having an A all together. The subject of waywardness in the spouse (the way it's explained on the board) is not addressed. The theme of her DR book is that divorce is not the answer. However, there is one little place where she states that if your spouse is in an A and unwilling to end it and work on the M, to get a divorce.
This is MWD's board, not mine. I try to be respectful of that fact. It has never been my intention to cause division. When I first joined back in 2007, there were people here who used the term WW.......and I hated it. I was still wayward and it really ruffled my feathers, b/c the things they said were true and it stung. Anyway, it didn't take long for me to realize some of the advice being shared was not going to work on a wayward W. So, I began using the term WW in an A. But, that didn't seem to scratch the surface, b/c I understood (and have learned so much more the past eleven years) that the waywardness started with the woman's lost respect for her H. By the time the H would find the DB board, he was usually like a whipped puppy. Applying soft love was not going to sprout any respect in her heart.
Vanilla had joined the board, and although I mainly write to H's with a WW.......one of her posts caught my eye. So, I read her thread and saw where this lovely lady had walked away from her very abusive H. She was referring to herself as a WAW, but she was getting advice similar to the "lumped" version (one technique for all) advice, as if she left b/c she was in an affair (which she clearly wasn't). To me, it appeared as if she was suffering partly b/c she was seeing herself as being wrong, somehow. She was a WAW, alright, but not b/c of a selfish, hidden agenda. So, that is when I decided to start a thread defining a wayward wife from a wife who was forced into an abusive situation. Even if a woman just left b/c she could no longer tolerate living with her H, her entire attitude is different than that of a WW. I'm getting off into too much detail. It's better explained in those threads. But that was my reason behind using the term wayward wife. I never asked or suggested anyone else do it, I just said I was going to start using that term to differentiate the two types. I think before the day was over, or maybe by the next day, I saw threads popping up with the term WW.
Not only do the majority of newcomer men have wayward W's, and the men tend to have NGS. I don't believe that is just a coincident. IRL, every WW I have met, usually has a nice guy H. The more you study it, the more it makes sense. But anyway, the H has a really difficult time applying tough love methods, b/c of his own psychological makeup. However, it was his passive, easy-going, "yes dear", subservient, undecivise, beta ways that lost respect of his W. She has turned into a disrespectful control freak or bully, or she's doing something that shows rebellion and disrespect..........while he just takes cover in his shell. This clearly makes matters worse.
So here's the thing. I don't try to force anyone to take my advice, okay? All you have to do is tell me you had rather use a softer approach, and I will back away. If you feel that a particular piece of advice is too firm, then say so. This is your life, not mine.
In many cases like yours, the W places her H in the friend zone. She is not sexually attracted to him, but she wants his companionship/friendship. She usually controls the relationship without much effort, b/c her H thinks it's easier to just try and make her happy rather than stand up to her. B/c of his gentleness and desire for his M to last, he often has trouble seeing the extent of her manipulation. Perhaps this is denial on his part, in order to continue living with her, IDK.
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I feel I am losing sight of what I'm working toward. What are the goals and checkpoints I am trying to reach?
Then perhaps you need to evaluate your situation and set new goals, based on the information you have.
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She emphasizes the importance of recognizing baby steps--they are the compass that shows you are going in the right direction and keeps you motivated
I agree with it. But take for example.......when you first read DR, maybe one of your goals was for you and W to share the same bed......or that she would be happier.......or she would talk more.......whatever. At that time, you had not even considered she might be wayward in her heart, much less in behavior, right? Now, you see that there are other things that must be achieved, like having her respect will lead to attraction, etc. Now, your eyes are being opened to just how manipulative she is, and it's upsetting for you. I think you feel a bit defeated and hopeless b/c you were wanting to see baby steps by this time. At the stage, baby steps don't come right away. And besides, you have not long ago even tried to flex your independent, manly muscles to GAL.
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My only goal now (aside from GAL) is to change the dynamics and regain my control, but to what end? And what are the signs of progress? When do I stop assuming the worst?
When she stops secretly contacting other men, it is a positive step. When she stops asking you to do this & that for her while she sits on her rear, and she waits on herself, it will be progress. When she stops acting like your mother, it will be progress. When she stops drilling you about every move you make, will be progress. Most of these will come in baby steps. They won't disappear and magically change overnight. This has been the behavior pattern for a long time, so whenever she slips or if she tests you.....then it's up to you to set her straight immediately, or she'll fall back into that old manipulative pattern. Baby steps doesn't mean she'll never fall down again.
Once she sees her man is not going to be bossed around, she may try to act all hurt or whatever......but it's one of her manipulative tricks. Just like she pulled on you the other night. If you'll stick to your guns, it will cause respect to grow in her heart, even of she does not tell you. She can't help it, b/c that is how God made the woman.
Look, since you are a Christian, I'm going to tell you how I was taught about the man and woman relationship after the fall in the garden. Part of Eve's punishment (and all of her desendents) was that her desire would be into her H. The H would be head of his W, etc. Women have pretty much rebelled ever since! Especially in modern times, women don't want a man over them! They hate that scripture about submitting to their H. Of course the word, "submit" in that passage means to show respect for the H.
So anyway, back to the fall in the garden. God made the woman's desire unto her H. Whether we like it or not, God took the woman's sexual attraction for her H and tied to her level of respect. Therefore, if she loses respect for her H, she also loses attraction/admiration (desire) for him. That affects her entire "in love" feelings (sexual desire) for him. That's when she stops wanting to have sex, and tells him she doesn't feel in love, but she still loves him (like a brother or friend). Her heart is filled with resentment, disrespect, selfishness, rebellion, and other mental attitude sins.
God expects the H to take his assigned role in the home & marriage, just as He expects the W to fill her role. They each have a role God gave them. We may not always like it, but it is what it is. When these roles are reversed in the MR, it throws everything out of order, and nobody is happy. But it gets even worse, b/c the W acts like a shrew or something just as bad, while the H acts like a wimp. Anyway, that is the basis for why women have to feel respect for their H, in order to feel sexual attraction.
I bet it would have been interesting to hear the conversation between Adam & Eve after eating that fruit. Can you imagine the blaming that went on between them? .
Adam: "If it wasn't for you eating that piece of fruit from the no-no tree, we wouldn't be wearing these itchy fig leaves. Now, we've been run out of the garden and I've got to go out and make a living".
Eve: "I just simply showed you the fruit, Adam, I did not tell you to eat it. That was your choice. Besides, what are you complaining about? I'm the one that's got to have kids, and it doesn't sound like much fun ahead for me, either. If you had been a real man, we wouldn't be in this mess"!
(That's not scripture, BTW, it's just my humor).
They lived a long, long time after the fall. I wonder how many times Adam wondered how long he would have to keep Eve in check? I mean, every time she got near a fruit tree, he probably thought....."Oh no, here we go again"!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
One of the things I don't get about Adam and Eve is that their children must've had to indulge in a fair amount of incest in order to populate the planet. That's gross. What was God thinking?
One of the things I don't get about Adam and Eve is that their children must've had to indulge in a fair amount of incest in order to populate the planet. That's gross. What was God thinking?
Absolutely true. Sibling marriages being "gross" is a fairly new concept. In the ancient world it happened quite often out of necessity.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
In the ancient world it happened quite often out of necessity.
Hmmmm...
I'll have to research what Richard Dawkins says about that. From an evolutionary perspective, there were probably plenty of reproductive opportunities without resorting to incest.
I googled "bible incest" and apparently having relations with relations was against the rules back then. Then again, incest would certain explain a few things on my father's side of the family...
In the ancient world it happened quite often out of necessity.
Hmmmm...
I'll have to research what Richard Dawkins says about that. From an evolutionary perspective, there were probably plenty of reproductive opportunities without resorting to incest.
I googled "bible incest" and apparently having relations with relations was against the rules back then. Then again, incest would certain explain a few things on my father's side of the family...
Soooo, the impossible of lightning striking a mud puddle, and the evolving over billions or years into a being like no other fleshly thing (think conscience, reason etc) happened more than once!?!?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Soooo, the impossible of lightning striking a mud puddle, and the evolving over billions or years into a being like no other fleshly thing (think conscience, reason etc) happened more than once!?!?
That's the fundamentalist rendition of evolution, but yes. Of course, since Earth is only six thousand years old, there clearly wasn't enough time for evolution. I guess I'll have to rethink that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, that is the basis for why women have to feel respect for their H, in order to feel sexual attraction. 
. 