[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[44tries]

O I also forgot to mention she asked me to round the dogs up for a group photo because she was thinking about getting a tattoo of them. This is including my dog who she has been telling "you will be better off without me" and "you need to learn to be okay with separation". Why on earth would she get a tattoo of his face?? It's basically a memorial of our family she is breaking apart. I found it so strange.

[SteveLW]

O I also forgot to mention she asked me to round the dogs up for a group photo because she was thinking about getting a tattoo of them. This is including my dog who she has been telling "you will be better off without me" and "you need to learn to be okay with separation". Why on earth would she get a tattoo of his face?? It's basically a memorial of our family she is breaking apart. I found it so strange.

IF you try to make since of a WW you will drive yourself nuts.

[SteveLW]

sense too LOL

[44tries]

Lol you're right, Steve. Normally I avoid that trap, thankfully. But sometimes I still have my WTF moments.

[44tries]

Alright, W has called me three times today. Also continues to buy me things and send pictures, talk about future activities we will do together, etc.

If I was DBing with a WAW, I would be feeling pretty good. She definitely seems to be re-engaging and I would continue to let her pursue while I keep a strong guard and focus my attention on me, 180s, and GAL. Essentially I'd be patient with the holding pattern. I wouldn't reject her phone calls or be as worried about being the gay best friend.

Problem is she is a WW. I've kept the A in my back pocket and it has kept me grounded in the reality that I am not on some ideal DBing road back to recon. I have taken the approach that the A doesn't really matter, I can't control it and even if it was in the open she could lie and I wouldn't be any less in the dark than I am right now. Back when I first confirmed it, you guys reinforced the idea that it doesn't change my DB approach. Now, it's becoming harder to feel that way. I feel like I'm making "progress" on some false mission and it's affecting my detachment.

I need some advice and reminders about why the DB approach doesn't change and why the A doesn't matter. I want to ignore it and keep going. But I don't want to continue to be the pathetic guy waiting around hoping I'm becoming plan A and not B. Should I stop taking her phone calls? Or be glad she is calling me instead of OM?

I don't know why I feel so directionless today.

[doodler]

Problem is she is a WW. I've kept the A in my back pocket and it has kept me grounded in the reality that I am not on some ideal DBing road back to recon. I have taken the approach that the A doesn't really matter, I can't control it and even if it was in the open she could lie and I wouldn't be any less in the dark than I am right now. Back when I first confirmed it, you guys reinforced the idea that it doesn't change my DB approach. Now, it's becoming harder to feel that way. I feel like I'm making "progress" on some false mission and it's affecting my detachment.

44tries,

I don't have any advice, but I have to say I impressed you've made it this far and that you realize that the struggle isn't nearly over yet. Good for you! Most guys start tripping all over themselves as soon as they see any positive signs from their wives.

I suspect your "directionless" feeling may be, in part, because you're getting your b@lls back and the fog is clearing so you're starting to see your marriage from a different perspective. That's not a bad thing.

[44tries]

Thanks for the encouragement, doodler. Always a pleasure to have you weigh in on my sitch.

My head is on straight, I won't be tripping anytime soon. You may very well be right...I KNOW I am getting my b@lls back and gaining clarity. It's come a long way, and goes right alongside my detachment. I know my self-worth, I know what I deserve, and I know that I have an awesome life ahead of me with or w/out W. Much of my fear about everything is gone. I'm trying to build on this good stuff and keep moving forward. I'm not afraid of taking the steps I need to, just not always sure what those steps should be...

[sandi2]

She initiated a talk today about her feelings being hurt because she saw I had bought a few things for my workout class and hadn't asked if she wanted some as well.

I assume you have access to see the balance in the banking account. How could she be "hurt" that you bought something for yourself? I think she just wants the control.

You: I didn't realize we were playing, "Mother, may I".

It was an awesome opportunity for validation because she was seriously upset and told me how she feels so selfless and thoughtful of other people all the time and others don't return the favor

(Excuse me while I choke). Did you say validation? The little hypocrite just told you how selfless and thoughtful of other people she was all the time. Poor little thing, nobody returns the favor. Man, can she twist things around! Guess that shows how she counts all the times you did stuff for her, huh?

She made it clear it wasn't a personal thing to do with me, she just felt sad and left out by these types of incidents and the workout stuff was an example.

You will eventually learn your first and middle names are Nobody and Somebody. It had EVERYTHING to do with you! Truth is, it had everything to do with her control. That is what you have to see.

After all the validation of her feelings, I asked her how I can help her not feel that way but also not have to ask her every time I do or buy anything

I am going to be sick. After all your hard work, you played right into her manipulating hands. Listen very carefully, b/c I kguys'll lot of betrayed guys are big to jump on the validation truck. Especially men with NGS. You have to be very careful validating the feelings of a WW. There are sevral reasons why, but for now I'll tell you it's how she interprets you validating her. She sees you being soft and able to be manipulated. In some cases she sees you as kissing up. Her feelings are wayward, which include resentment, disrespect, selfishness, and many other wrong things. Hearing her does not mean you agree with her, and she should not confuse the two, and neither should you. Most times, her feelings are directed at you......and that's when I have problem in validating a wayward W. Of course, like most people on the board, you don't actually report what you said to validate. You just say you validated. It could have been a uh-huh, for all I know. Just remember that she doesn't think, feel, or behave rationally......so how can she interpret your validation logically? Therefore, unless you are a naturally gifted validator, like Another Stander or Wonka (and very, very few are), I suggest you not seek awesome opportunities to validate a selfish, entitled, manipulative, cheating WW.......until you get your bearings a whole lot better than they are currently. It's not just you that I see this scenario played over & over again, where the H is so focused on a chance to validate, that he doesn't appear to recognize how she manipulated or disrespected him.

She said it doesn't have to be always, just if it makes sense and seems like something she would like, I could think of her too.

She meant, just when it makes sense to HER! Not the normal person, just HER, but wasn't it nice that she said it didn't have to be always (which she did not mean, whatsoever).

She mentioned how she had told me she was interested in joining my workout class when she is back working normal schedules if I didn't mind, and that's why maybe I could have thought of asking if she wanted me to order some stuff for her as well.

And there you have it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just feels like some major mixed signals or she is throwing me whole loaves of bread (not just crumbs). Who wants to chat on the phone for over an hour with the H they don't want?

What? No, it's not mixed signals or loaves of bread at all. She intends to control you. She set out to manipulate you to wait on her hand & foot when she gets back home, and to join your workout group. Those are the only things you have stood your ground and she meant to undo them......and she did. You played right into her hands.

I am going to give some temporary anti-DB advice......in order to help you get stronger. Stop thinking about her feelings. B/c it scr@ws with your mind. Stop trying to validate her feelings, b/c it scr@ws with your mind. Once your balls have completely developed, then you can evaluate things and see if you can afford to consider her feelings! She has carried your b@lls in her purse so long that you can't interact like an alpha male. Currently, you just set yourself backwards, and will have to work twice as hard to set it straight again. This is not a WAW. She is wayward, through and through. She is among the most self-entitled, manipulative, & controlling type of women you could have for a W. Sometimes you might be able to see a little of it, but I don't think you are aware to the degree. Once you have big b@lls.....things will change and she will respect you, instead of controlling you. Don't worry, if others can change, you can too.

Just tell her you've thought it over and don't agree the things she had to say. The things she expressed doesn't have anything to do with other people not doing her favors, but everything to do with how she wants to control you (yes tell her this part, too). You don't agree with how she sees you checking with her before buying a few things for yourself. Neither will you be catering to her, b/c that is going to stop. And you don't want her joining your workout group. Don't explain, or give excuses. It is your observation that it hasn't brought much appreciation or respect from her. A man should not have to ask his W if he can do something. And, he should be able to have a few activities without her. You can tell her now, and let her get over it while she's on her trip, or tell her when she gets back. Either way, you are going to have to stand up to her when showdown comes.
You never said, so I assumed you never had that talk before she left on the trip.

[44tries]

I assume you have access to see the balance in the banking account. How could she be "hurt" that you bought something for yourself? I think she just wants the control.

You: I didn't realize we were playing, "Mother, may I".

So, I think it was more about the specific item I bought because she also wanted it. I don't think she would be hurt just because I bought myself something in general, that would be kind of extreme. But we have always been a bit that way, in that if we are buying something new that's "fun" we usually include each other. Moreso her than me--she will never buy herself something without asking if I want something too. So basically she was saying 'hey you know I probably wanted a new one of those and I feel like I would have asked you so why didn't you ask me?'

(Excuse me while I choke). Did you say validation? The little hypocrite just told you how selfless and thoughtful of other people she was all the time. Poor little thing, nobody returns the favor. Man, can she twist things around! Guess that shows how she counts all the times you did stuff for her, huh?

This is good feedback. I really wasn't sure on the validation front because it is always emphasized so much I thought it was like "the minimum" thing that you should always be doing no matter what.

You will eventually learn your first and middle names are Nobody and Somebody. It had EVERYTHING to do with you! Truth is, it had everything to do with her control. That is what you have to see.

Wow, okay, you are really helping me see. I don't think I realized the true depth.

I am going to be sick. After all your hard work, you played right into her manipulating hands. Listen very carefully, b/c I kguys'll lot of betrayed guys are big to jump on the validation truck. Especially men with NGS. You have to be very careful validating the feelings of a WW. There are sevral reasons why, but for now I'll tell you it's how she interprets you validating her. She sees you being soft and able to be manipulated. In some cases she sees you as kissing up. Her feelings are wayward, which include resentment, disrespect, selfishness, and many other wrong things. Hearing her does not mean you agree with her, and she should not confuse the two, and neither should you. Most times, her feelings are directed at you......and that's when I have problem in validating a wayward W. Of course, like most people on the board, you don't actually report what you said to validate. You just say you validated. It could have been a uh-huh, for all I know. Just remember that she doesn't think, feel, or behave rationally......so how can she interpret your validation logically? Therefore, unless you are a naturally gifted validator, like Another Stander or Wonka (and very, very few are), I suggest you not seek awesome opportunities to validate a selfish, entitled, manipulative, cheating WW.......until you get your bearings a whole lot better than they are currently. It's not just you that I see this scenario played over & over again, where the H is so focused on a chance to validate, that he doesn't appear to recognize how she manipulated or disrespected him.

Again, I'm really glad to hear these thoughts on validation. It makes total sense, and I had reservations about how much I was supposed to be doing because it is one of the tricky things that seems like a good thing but also feels "weak"--or soft as you put it. I tried to be conscious about not agreeing with her, because I know that's not validation. I said things like "I can tell that bothered you" and "I see how you might feel that way". But I definitely understand how that could open me up to manipulation, due to the lack of rationality. I think I was still thinking the validation would be received as a "normal" person would receive it (and that the conversation was sincere), gotta keep remembering the depth of WW.

And there you have it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What? No, it's not mixed signals or loaves of bread at all. She intends to control you. She set out to manipulate you to wait on her hand & foot when she gets back home, and to join your workout group. Those are the only things you have stood your ground and she meant to undo them......and she did. You played right into her hands.

Well, I did not tell her anything about her being able to join the group so that discussion can still be had. Again, I am really trying to wrap my head around this level of manipulation. I knew she was WW and can't be trusted, but I didn't realize it was so...calculated. Admittedly I was just over in OrangeK's thread, but now reading this it feels like you are telling me she is crazy and has some scheme to weasel into all aspects of my life. I'm hearing you, maybe she does.

I am going to give some temporary anti-DB advice......in order to help you get stronger. Stop thinking about her feelings. B/c it scr@ws with your mind. Stop trying to validate her feelings, b/c it scr@ws with your mind. Once your balls have completely developed, then you can evaluate things and see if you can afford to consider her feelings! She has carried your b@lls in her purse so long that you can't interact like an alpha male. Currently, you just set yourself backwards, and will have to work twice as hard to set it straight again. This is not a WAW. She is wayward, through and through. She is among the most self-entitled, manipulative, & controlling type of women you could have for a W. Sometimes you might be able to see a little of it, but I don't think you are aware to the degree. Once you have big b@lls.....things will change and she will respect you, instead of controlling you. Don't worry, if others can change, you can too.

You are right exactly; it wasn't that I was unaware, I just didn't realize the degree. This really helps give me the direction I was looking for, because now I can abandon the feeling that I should be trying at all really to worry about building positive things. Right now is all about regaining my control and power in the R. I do not want these kinds of setbacks. I know I can change and I'm glad you think when things change, she'll respect me, but with the picture you've painted it's hard to imagine her ever being normal again

Just tell her you've thought it over and don't agree the things she had to say. The things she expressed doesn't have anything to do with other people not doing her favors, but everything to do with how she wants to control you (yes tell her this part, too). You don't agree with how she sees you checking with her before buying a few things for yourself. Neither will you be catering to her, b/c that is going to stop. And you don't want her joining your workout group. Don't explain, or give excuses. It is your observation that it hasn't brought much appreciation or respect from her. A man should not have to ask his W if he can do something. And, he should be able to have a few activities without her. You can tell her now, and let her get over it while she's on her trip, or tell her when she gets back. Either way, you are going to have to stand up to her when showdown comes.
You never said, so I assumed you never had that talk before she left on the trip.

I'm worried I may have given the impression that the discussion was bigger than it was. She didn't cause a huge fuss; it was fairly low key, like 'hey I'm just telling you how I feel'. But if you think I should bring it back up and say those things, I will. Joining the workout group is a separate issue that yes, will likely need to be addressed (you're correct we haven't talked about it). She has mentioned it in passing two times, and I have ignored both. If she seriously pursues it, I will tell her she can't join. No explanations, which I'm sure she will try to demand.

Thank you Sandi, this is what I needed.

[sandi2]

I need some advice and reminders about why the DB approach doesn't change and why the A doesn't matter. I want to ignore it and keep going.

I have no idea what you are talking about. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can you elaborate, please? (Bet you don't get asked to do that many times).