[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[artista]

I don't exactly know why you didn't tell her you know she is lying... That you know about OM...

[44tries]

Well, if you read back to my second thread, there was a LOT of discussion over whether or not I should confront her...and the ultimate consensus was I was not ready to do so and it would require a show of strength that I was unable to show (I need to be willing to move out of this house and leave her for good and I'm not quite in the place to do that, logistically).

[44tries]

I guess I shouldn't say consensus because there were people that didn't agree. Rather, the ultimate decision I made at the time was to not confront, after Sandi talked me down from the ledge.

[sandi2]

Well I want to clarify something. Telling you to be vague was for a couple of specific reasons. One was to break your habit of talking her to death and spilling your guts to the point of leaving no mystery, and therefore, not much interest from her. The other was related to her drilling you for details about everything you did, and especially when you were GAL. You interacted as if you had to give a minute by minute account for yourself. Alpha men don't behave with a woman in that manner. I told you not to fear what she might think or how she may respond.........b/c as a H with NGS, you need to break away from living in that pattern of answering to your W as though she's your mother. Both of you need to learn she is in no authority over you and in no position to interrogate you.......nor, will she ever be in that position, b/c you won't allow it. You are going to start behaving like a grown a$$ man, instead of a wuss, and she will learn to respect you as a man......or deal with the consequences. Also, since she has lost sexual attraction for you and has chosen not to sleep in the same bed, she needs to realize she loses more than just physical intimacy with you.

What I want to make very clear is that I do not encourage anyone to lie and be dishonest. I don't think I told you to intentionally make your W think you were dating. I did tell you that this would be exactly where she would go, didn't I? She needs to wonder what you are doing.......and to realize she could be putting you on the open market.......and that she could lose you. However, I don't think you should deliberately say things to try and make her believe you are dating or being unfaithful.

Frankly, I would have to laugh at her hypocrisy.

She said it would be inappropriate. Ah, interesting, seems we agree then.

That would have been the perfect response to her^^^^^^^^^^. Let me caution you not to get so carried away with giving vague answers that you are being dishonest. Understand why you give vague answers and when to give them. We want this to work in favor of the MR......not against it. Remember to stay balanced.

Sure, you answer them...with lies!! This would have all been "good communication" except for the fact that it was actually a game that I lost, essentially because I didn't play my trump card--which is that I know of her A. It became a discussion that required (and was about) honesty and transparency and neither one of us gave it. I had to become vague and evasive because I knew the whole thing was a sham, and she wondered why I was being complicated and confusing. She wants to demand honesty and realness from me, and even go so far as to say she thinks she has "been pretty good at continuing communication with me" and we have both been open about our thoughts and feelings. It was all so convincing for a minute I almost doubted what I have seen with my own eyes.

She is projecting, IMHO. If another discussion should start down this familiar trail, I think you would be better off to change the subject or just end the call. Eventually the A will need to be addressed. I had hoped you could change the emotional dynamics in the MR, first. I am still hoping this trip will give you time and space to get a better idea of how to do it. So whenever you have these type of conversations where she is being a hypocrite and playing her games, don't give her the impression you are buying a word of it. I don't mean that you call her a liar.......but just in the way you respond. I have a feeling the conversation ended with her having the last word, so to speak, about being open & honest with each other.

Here's the truth of the matter. She wants you to be open and honest with her. But she doesn't want to admit that she's not abiding by the same rules. If you called her out on the A, she would say it was nothing and he was just a friend, that she knew you would misunderstand......yada, yada, yada. She would have you doubting your own grandmother by the time she got through spinning her yarn. So, make darn sure winning the game is well worth playing your trump card! You only get one shot at it, and you'd better make sure you have the advantage when you use your trump. Revealing it through texting is not the way to play it, IMHO.

When she is texting you and sounding nice and respectful, then you return in kind. Some questions are probably her way of finding something to discuss, but if she's drilling or other disrespectful stuff........use one word responses. If she starts blowing up your phone b/c she's mad.......stop answering completely and turn off the phone for a couple of hours. Don't lie about it, just tell her you are an adult and won't be subjected to her interrogation. You can text her at the end of the day and tell her that she can't treat you that way anymore. Tell her if she wants a reply, she has to talk respectfully, and interrogation is not respectful communication. You just have to stand up to her.

[44tries]

Well I want to clarify something. Telling you to be vague was for a couple of specific reasons. One was to break your habit of talking her to death and spilling your guts to the point of leaving no mystery, and therefore, not much interest from her. The other was related to her drilling you for details about everything you did, and especially when you were GAL. You interacted as if you had to give a minute by minute account for yourself. Alpha men don't behave with a woman in that manner. I told you not to fear what she might think or how she may respond.........b/c as a H with NGS, you need to break away from living in that pattern of answering to your W as though she's your mother. Both of you need to learn she is in no authority over you and in no position to interrogate you.......nor, will she ever be in that position, b/c you won't allow it. You are going to start behaving like a grown a$$ man, instead of a wuss, and she will learn to respect you as a man......or deal with the consequences. Also, since she has lost sexual attraction for you and has chosen not to sleep in the same bed, she needs to realize she loses more than just physical intimacy with you.

Right. I understand the point of being vague. I know that I am an open book, over-sharer and if she has nothing to wonder about, she won't be interested. I think maybe I got a little too carried away with the idea that she should not be allowed to interrogate me. She is in such a position of entitlement, so used to being able to ask me anything she wants and get a full answer, that she does it all the time. Your point about losing more than just physical intimacy is also spot on. She should no longer have the intimate details of the daily going-ons in my life. She doesn't get to know for sure who I spend time with or what we do. However, she will ask with no hesitation because of her entitlement. This is why I tried to stand up to her asking if I was just making friends or "something more". But I think, in times where she becomes that direct, I cannot use that moment to fight this battle.

What I want to make very clear is that I do not encourage anyone to lie and be dishonest. I don't think I told you to intentionally make your W think you were dating. I did tell you that this would be exactly where she would go, didn't I? She needs to wonder what you are doing.......and to realize she could be putting you on the open market.......and that she could lose you. However, I don't think you should deliberately say things to try and make her believe you are dating or being unfaithful.

Of course. You absolutely did not tell me to make her think I was dating and I have done nothing of the sort. I mentioned before how I thought she was manic and paranoid because she has been so nosy about my GAL and assuming this must mean I'm dating. You explained well how it has nothing to do with paranoia, it's normal for the WW. And this makes complete sense to me. Of course she doesn't want me but doesn't want anyone else to have me. I have not ever even hinted or suggested I might be dating or "talking" to someone. In fact, I have been bad about telling her in no uncertain terms that there is NOT another person and not at least letting her wonder. Her continued questions on the topic come completely from her, not me or my word choice. I do wonder if it means she is having any sense that she could lose me, which as you say, would be a good thing. But I try not to mind read.

Frankly, I would have to laugh at her hypocrisy.

O yes. And this is why it was frustrating for me to have that whole conversation and not be able to call her out. It astounds me how far she will go pushing the issue of if I might have an OP, how it would be wrong, how she wouldn't do me wrong, etc. If I were committing such transgressions, I would be avoiding the topic entirely and hoping she never brought it up, or so I think but I'm also not the one doing it. Her willingness to boldly lie in these ways really gives me full clarity as to the ugliness of the waywardness and the dark place her heart is in.

She said it was inappropriate. Ah, interesting, seems we agree then.

That would have been the perfect response to her^^^^^^^^^^. Let me caution you not to get so carried away with giving vague answers that you are being dishonest. Understand why you give vague answers and when to give them. We want this to work in favor of the MR......not against it. Remember to stay balanced.

Well, essentially that was my response. I turned her question around so that she would be the one to establish those boundaries and admit she thought it was inappropriate. Then, I said, well there you go. I think we both know darn well it would be inappropriate so why are you asking? I definitely made sure we were clear that we now had an agreement that has been explicitly verbalized--which is that it is NOT appropriate for either of us to be talking to someone else at this time--and unless she has some reason to think I am dishonoring said agreement, she doesn't need to ask. In doing so, this also eliminates any future argument from her that her A could be justified by separation or whatever.

Your point on balance is very important. I hate dishonesty and am a very honest person. Which is why it bothered me a lot to even have this discussion without being forthcoming about my knowledge that it was all a sham from her perspective. I will not use vagueness as a tool or excuse to lie. I am clear on its purpose and perhaps just need to fine tune my guage on when it is appropriate and when it isn't.

She is projecting, IMHO. If another discussion should start down this familiar trail, I think you would be better off to change the subject or just end the call. Eventually the A will need to be addressed. I had hoped you could change the emotional dynamics in the MR, first. I am still hoping this trip will give you time and space to get a better idea of how to do it. So whenever you have these type of conversations where she is being a hypocrite and playing her games, don't give her the impression you are buying a word of it. I don't mean that you call her a liar.......but just in the way you respond. I have a feeling the conversation ended with her having the last word, so to speak, about being open & honest with each other.

Agree with all of this. Back to my feeling disgusted about having such a dishonest exchange, I wish I had just never let it go down that road. I should have just answered her stupid question and been done with it rather than making it into a big discussion that forced me into "buying" her words because the only alternative became to say I knew she was lying. The conversation didn't really end with talk of being open and honest per se, because I hung on tightly to my original point that she isn't allowed to interrogate me. Her last word was a reiteration of how I have been "getting more involved" and she had a right to ask. I just referred back the agreement and said well now we know where we both stand. Next time, these hypocritical discussions just won't be entertained and I won't give her any assurances that I think she is still acting in good faith and we can have these types of "honest" agreements.

Here's the truth of the matter. She wants you to be open and honest with her. But she doesn't want to admit that she's not abiding by the same rules. If you called her out on the A, she would say it was nothing and he was just a friend, that she knew you would misunderstand......yada, yada, yada. She would have you doubting your own grandmother by the time she got through spinning her yarn. So, make darn sure winning the game is well worth playing your trump card! You only get one shot at it, and you'd better make sure you have the advantage when you use your trump. Revealing it through texting is not the way to play it, IMHO.

Perfectly stated. That's exactly what she wants, honesty and openness and "good faith" from me without giving it herself but making it look like she is. I have that exact expectation about her response if I were to confront her about the A. I do not have any physical evidence and I'm sure she will deny it just as she has the first two times I have asked her about it (before I knew). I am fully aware I only have one shot and I intend to make it a snipe that does not miss. Agreed it will not be revealed through texting, that's just more weakness.

You mention you hope I can change the emotional dynamics first and will use this trip to better prepare. I am trying my best. I am patient and don't need to do anything rash or abrupt. I do wonder if you think there is an effective way to use the trump card without needing to move out of this house. I know the answer before seemed like an essential no. But that's what I keep getting stuck on. Like I said, I am just fine continuing to put in the work and I do think I'm making good progress in more areas than one. But the trump card issue does linger over my head and I don't really know what I'm looking for to know "it's time" or when I should begin forming a specific plan of action around that "play" (I do really hate turning it into a game but you know what I mean). Right now my mindset is sort of like one you would have when weightlifting. You keep doing your routine until it is no longer making you stronger (aka you stop being able to increase weight, reps, etc). Then, you can move to more advanced exercises. Many people make the mistake of jumping to the advanced stuff while they are just beginners when the basics are what will actually make them stronger, faster. So far, I think I am still making progress with the basics.

When she is texting you and sounding nice and respectful, then you return in kind. Some questions are probably her way of finding something to discuss, but if she's drilling or other disrespectful stuff........use one word responses. If she starts blowing up your phone b/c she's mad.......stop answering completely and turn off the phone for a couple of hours. Don't lie about it, just tell her you are an adult and won't be subjected to her interrogation. You can text her at the end of the day and tell her that she can't treat you that way anymore. Tell her if she wants a reply, she has to talk respectfully, and interrogation is not respectful communication. You just have to stand up to her.

Great reminder that comes back to me feeling like I got carried away with the "you can't interrogate me" stuff. She wasn't really drilling me or being disrespectful. She asked one, very direct question. I probably reacted strongly partly because I still can't believe she even wants to go there given what she is doing. It really is a mind trip because all of her texting is friendly and positive. She wants to have good communication. In fact, her communication was fantastic even in the midst of our wrestling match over whether she can ask me questions like she did. She told me, respectfully and productively, when I was being lengthy or confusing. She didn't get frustrated and at one point when she almost did and gave a one word answer, she turned back and explained her feelings. If you knew how our communication was in the past (which I realize you don't), this is like night and day. I have learned to be much less exhausting and she has learned to have a lot more patience and emotional control.

I digress, the point is our communication during this time she is gone has been all positive. She hasn't said or asked anything disrespectful that I needed to stand up to (aside from the question we focused on). Without the usual household issues of her treating me like room service, her entitled side diminishes a lot. She just gives friendly chatter, sends me pictures of gifts she bought me, etc. I continue to never text her first and often not last, and she still messages me everyday. I try hard not to mind read. But sometimes I think "this situation really isn't hopeless and everything just got totally buried by bad, clueless dynamics" and sometimes I think "well she definitely doesn't hate me, she thinks we can be friends, and the short answer to all of this is: she just isn't into me, plain and simple". Then I remember we're married.

Sorry that was really long. Thank you for everything.

[sandi2]

I turned her question around so that she would be the one to establish those boundaries and admit she thought it was inappropriate.

I am thinking this is the way to handle some of her questions about making friends, the definition of "just friends" or "something more". As the conversations present the opportunity, and she has pretty much laid out everything she believes is inappropriate in a MR.......then approach her about the OM. Entrapment? Sure 'nuff.

I think timing is important, so don't get in a hurry. I hope it can wait until she gets back from the trip, at least......but you'll have to follow your gut.

[44tries]

I am thinking this is the way to handle some of her questions about making friends, the definition of "just friends" or "something more". As the conversations present the opportunity, and she has pretty much laid out everything she believes is inappropriate in a MR.......then approach her about the OM. Entrapment? Sure 'nuff.

I'm glad you think this is a good way to handle it...gives me confidence too that some of the stuff I am coming up with on the fly and on my own are on the right track. I think the entrapment idea works. She is forcing these conversations and basically setting the trap herself. I will certainly use it when I decide to approach the issue.

I think timing is important, so don't get in a hurry. I hope it can wait until she gets back from the trip, at least......but you'll have to follow your gut.

Completely agree...not in a hurry. Don't intend to do it until after she's back, I am following my gut and biding my time. I still have work to do. Since timing is so important, do you have any advice on identifying "proper" timing?

She said she might get swapped out next week, or could be the week after, who knows. She called me today and we had a 45 min phone chat about...nothing. She just wanted to talk. She made a few vague comments about taking a trip together to see a friend over Memorial Day weekend...I am expecting the unexpected and keeping my eyes forward.

[44tries]

So W called me this evening for another hour+ phone chat. Didn't answer at first bc I was out GALing and called back later. She asked me to wait to start some tv shows so we could watch together when she's back. She is being so friendly I am starting to wonder if I should become suspicious, for lack of a better word. I'm just working on my detachment and trying not to read into anything, but between the texting and calling it's starting to take enough of my time that I don't want to waste it.

That may sound strange, I don't view it as wasted time to talk to her and am obviously trying to save my marriage, but there is something unsettling about the fact that if I wasn't aware of the A (which I'm not as far as she is concerned), I would probably be getting taken for a ride right now. Not sure if I'm making any sense...

[sandi2]

Is watching tv together over the phone common behavior, or has this just started?

Next, she'll be wanting to sleep with you.....but just over the phone.

[44tries]

Is watching tv together over the phone common behavior, or has this just started?

Next, she'll be wanting to sleep with you.....but just over the phone.

Lol, we are normally not apart for long periods so there really isn't a "normal" for over the phone stuff. But she didn't want to watch tv together over the phone, she was saying we would watch together when she gets back so asked me not to start watching a certain show without her. Now, we have NOT been doing much tv watching together even in person since BD, so that is why the request was a bit odd.

I do think your joke about the phone might be onto something...i think the literal distance there helps her feel more comfortable so maybe that's why she seems extra friendly. I just don't want to get sucked into thinking things are really moving in a positive direction and I'm actually just the gay best friend while she has an A. I have no way of knowing as time goes on if her A is heading south and she is having more ambivalence, or if she is just wanting all the niceties of friendship and the A is more serious than ever. It [censored] to be in the dark, but like I said a lot better than if I was clueless and totally blindsided. That's what bothers me...I shudder at the thought of what I would be thinking if I was oblivious to the A.

She initiated a talk today about her feelings being hurt because she saw I had bought a few things for my workout class and hadn't asked if she wanted some as well. It was an awesome opportunity for validation because she was seriously upset and told me how she feels so selfless and thoughtful of other people all the time and others don't return the favor. She made it clear it wasn't a personal thing to do with me, she just felt sad and left out by these types of incidents and the workout stuff was an example. She said she knows she is different than most people and she realizes it is "needy". After all the validation of her feelings, I asked her how I can help her not feel that way but also not have to ask her every time I do or buy anything (thoughts of making myself dinner and her getting upset I didn't ask her if she wanted a plate come to mind...). She said it doesn't have to be always, just if it makes sense and seems like something she would like, I could think of her too. She mentioned how she had told me she was interested in joining my workout class when she is back working normal schedules if I didn't mind, and that's why maybe I could have thought of asking if she wanted me to order some stuff for her as well. I understand her point, and if we were happily married, sure! But good grief it is all so confusing for me and I knew she was being genuine and serious and trying to share her feelings so I did not choose this time to stand up and try to tell her she can't join my GAL etc. Because I used validation, the conversation went really well and I told her I understood and could give her the same consideration she gives me (she also used the example of how she always thinks to buy me things, which is true and she is still doing that so I guess I can reciprocate).

I accept that the limbo is just the way it goes but I am very careful about not taking setbacks in my detachment and the past couple days the amount of time I have spent communicating with her (again, ALL her initiation) is enough that I'm worried it is somehow unhealthy for me. Of course I like it, but it feels like I'm doing illegal drugs. Tonight is the first night she has texted me to tell me she is going to sleep and wished me goodnight. This was about 30 min after I had stopped responding to whatever she had said earlier (in other words, it was unnecessary). Just feels like some major mixed signals or she is throwing me whole loaves of bread (not just crumbs). Who wants to chat on the phone for over an hour with the H they don't want? Maybe my male brain just doesn't get it.