More clarification on the above because i am sure i will get heat for "not holding her feet to the fire on the IC", but... I didn't insist on IC as a condition precedent or non-mnegotiable. What i did insist on was that we "continue seeing the counselor" and that we "follow the counselor's advice regarding when, how often, and who" to see her, as well as following her substantive advice. Now, at that time, counselor was insisting on IC, which i just naturally assumed would continue but... she (MC) has now backed off on that and is perfectly happy to just see us jointly and has said she only need see us individually if one of the individuals wants to be seen that way... and W is apparently not so inclined (though maybe she will be once i dump all of the above on her...)
In that vein: One other thing i wrestle with exploring, if i decide to delve further into the beach trip from last July, and that is that i know that on one other occasion she stayed at OM's hotel room. It was some weekend night after a night out drinking, and i don't know exactly when. I only know about it from one of the overheard conversations where they referenced it... she talked about being tipsy and about going back to his room to crash and then she asked him, jokingly/teasingly "Did you take advantage of me?" and i did not hear the response (could only hear her side of convo). She does not know i know this. Wondering if anything to be gained by bringing it up-- it did not appear in her global confession which covered pretty much everything else i knew and a few things i did not. Maybe its better left buried-- maybe she'd lose respect for me if she knew i could still take her back thinking she had slept with OM, IDK. OTOH, left undiscussed, it is likely to always be there, gnawing at me. I know what MC would say: No secrets, you guys both need to lay your cards on the table, but this one IDK about.
Hmmm. Seems like it should have come up before now. Hoos I'm guessing you didn't bring it up before in order to not rock the boat? A little lingering NGS maybe?
Also I get the impression that you're not entirely okay with her quitting IC. Is that correct?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I don't think she would lose respect for you for taking her back if you tell her you know about the hotel incident... I think it's important that you don't let her minimize any of the OM-related stuff... I remember you were hurt when she went to meet BFF at the beach instead of going home with you after your vacation... And she kind of sprang it on you... She knew she was going to see him... you can't minimize that...
Hmmm. Seems like it should have come up before now. Hoos I'm guessing you didn't bring it up before in order to not rock the boat? A little lingering NGS maybe?
Nah, NGS never really one of my problems. And specifically WRT "reveals" or confrontations about discrete data points, both my MC as well as Sandi2 will tell you I actually tend to be over eager with the "a-HA! I know ___________" stuff. Reason I question bringing it up now is wondering if it would be constructive in terms of piecing the MR back together. I already know the damaging info and, honestly, have assumed "the worst"... and am still willing to take her back on my terms. Not sure what is to be gained by revealing it, other than to emphasize that i have plenty of reason to be hurt and to feel mistrustful of her... but even there i have plenty of other reason, and not sure that that particular data point gives me that much more in the big scheme of things. Confronting WW's with specific data points, even when you have "hard evidence" is, as Sandi2 has noted, usually just an invitation to argue and rationalize and deny and deflect. Of course, with my W in the current sitch, she has pretty much "spilled her guts"... not about every little detail but about the substance of the relationship and about certain data points she knows I would find hurtful or whatever if they came out later. OTOH, obviously, that is something I will carry around with me and probably "always wonder." I mean, she and I spent plenty of "nights together" when we were dating before we actually "did it", and as I have already assumed the worst things could only get better for me in terms of finding out what happened. Whatever.
Incidentally, this is all the kind of thing that would be addressed by the program/workbook that MC had loosely prescribed for us to do together ("loosely", because she said we have already covered a lot of the material to one degree or another and in some cases-- <ahem> the intimacy/touching exercises, for instance-- we are way past that. Wanted us to kind of pick and choose amongst the exercises based on our own judgment and discussion, guided by her in sessions as needed. Trouble is, we have sort of fallen off doing that the last couple of weeks, and now W questions the necessity of doing it as, disturbingly, does MC... "as long as we are making progress and not backsliding". Both W and MC give me some grief for being too rigid and always wanting a perfectly structured solution or to do things "by the book" , and I do have proclivities that way, but... in this case I still think there'd be some value. There are detailed reflection and introspection and examination of conscience and forgiveness exercises that I think might be helpful for something like this.
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Also I get the impression that you're not entirely okay with her quitting IC. Is that correct?
Correct. But, as I said, I never insisted on IC per se, just that we follow the MC's recommendations in that regard. FWIW, she (W) seems to be in a very good place, and does appear to have broken down a bunch of walls that have been in place with her for years, even before our own troubles-- her lack of love for self, her inability to talk to anyone about her abortion in college, her commitment issues, her conflicted faith-- all things she talked about and aired extensively with MC during those two weeks after I walked out. Trouble is, I just have a hard time believing she managed to work all of that out in the space of two to three weeks, though she would say (and has) that she was working on those issues within herself and obliquely with the help of guidance in the MC sessions for the previous 7 months, and the shock/trauma of me leaving pushed her over the threshold of a breakthrough. IDK. Actions aside (and so far her actions have been nearly unimpeachable with the exception of that night in the bar), I just find that a little too hard to believe, and her continued pining and excuse-making for bff makes me worry.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
To respond about your W's birthday.........I still say no surprises! If you want to give a party, fine......just don't surprise her. She doesn't like those type of surprises b/c she wants to be looking her best.
The subject of her at OM's hotel room needs to be addressed. You are not going to be able to let it go. The hurt in you will come through in other ways, and your W will misunderstand.
If you had tried to present some data before she was begging you to reconcile, I think it would have been useless in getting you the results you wanted. The time you should have brought it was when she was suppose to be confessing everything. She may get angry that you have kept silent about it and decide to address it now.........however, I think you have to get an answer b/c you need to know one way or the other. Of course, she will want to know how you acquired the data........and that may open a can of worms, IDK. As I recall, you started pulling back when the MC said something about you revealing your sources of intell. So, bear in mind if she reveals anymore secrets, she will probably feel you have to reveal your sources. You don't.......but, i'm just saying what you might expect. Even the MC hinted that not revealing your sources were equal to keeping secrets. I thought you gave her an excellent reply, BTW.
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Both W and MC give me some grief for being too rigid and always wanting a perfectly structured solution or to do things "by the book" , and I do have proclivities that way, but... in this case I still think there'd be some value. There are detailed reflection and introspection and examination of conscience and forgiveness exercises that I think might be helpful for something like this.
If you are doing this in hopes she will talk about that time in OM's hotel room........I don't think she'll volunteer the information, even if nothing happened. She'll think you would be suspicious b/c she didn't mentioned it when she was spilling her guts. And, if something did happen.......she knows she should have confessed it when she was asked if she had anything else to add. You are wanting the workbook to serve the purpose, but I don't think it will.........b/c of this timing situation. If you want to know, then you will have to be the one to bring it up, instead of dancing around it. This will be rotten part of the apple, if you don't get it cleared up once and for all.
Unless you can tell when she's lying, I just don't know that you'll be satisfied. Plus, I think she's going to start pushing back when you address the hotel room subject. Here's the thing........make your decision and let it be the one that you can live with. Don't keep digging up these bones!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
A couple of things... Just because W and MC think you don't necessarily have to do the workbook does not mean you should keep your opinions to yourself... If you feel like you guys ought to do more of it, tell them that. Say you're not comfortable putting it aside so early in the reconciliation... What you want has to matter... I do not think it's okay that you two have already fallen away from doing some of the work...
I also don't believe your W has worked through all of her issues in such a short time, nor do I think she was working on them the seven months before you confronted her... No way...
Had a cards on the table talk. Hotel room night came out. She didn't go digging for how I knew, just: "I'm not seeing him any more, it's over. I want to be with you" And, (crying, laying her head on my chest) I am so so so sorry for all of this. I know all those things I did were wrong and that they hurt you so badly. And I know you need time, but I'm not going anywhere. "
She still continue s to behave in exemplary fashion, though she does still mention bff from time to time.
We leave for Cancun tomorrow morning!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Had a cards on the table talk. Hotel room night came out. She didn't go digging for how I knew, just: "I'm not seeing him any more, it's over. I want to be with you" And, (crying, laying her head on my chest) I am so so so sorry for all of this. I know all those things I did were wrong and that they hurt you so badly. And I know you need time, but I'm not going anywhere. "
She still continue s to behave in exemplary fashion, though she does still mention bff from time to time.
We leave for Cancun tomorrow morning!
Have a fun, safe trip!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
