Obviously, the stranger who put his hand her shoulder must have read something there for him to feel it was okay. It should have been a red flag to your W, the second he placed his hand on her.
Yeah, this will be one of the MC session issues we bring up. I imagine it will be a topic of convo in her IC session, as well. As to "Why" she does it, i have no clue. Don't think they "Why" particularly matters to me, anyway, unless it has to do with some neglect on my part which clearly isn't the case right now. The "Why" Seems like more a question for the Counselor. I suppose DonH could be on to something about her needing the constant validation... that would be consistent with what W and MC have explored in IC about W's rejection-filled past. Whatever it is, it is not a new behavior pattern for her, and certainly far predates her "WW" phase. Definitely more of a concern now, though, that she is in the recovery phase from that syndrome.
Nothing really additional to report right now. Tough weekend with multiple "troubled child" issues, and some financial concerns raising their ugly heads, but we managed to keep it "light" on the MR front at least for a little bit last night. We did not get to get to our weekly exercises of working through the post-affair recovery stuff. Just too much going on. Goiing to try to regroup with that tomorrow or Tuesday. It has, however, taken on added importance in my mind given some of the "slips" she's had recently. I had been inclined to sort of breeze through it, but i now think it is going to be more important to really dig in and explore some of this stuff.
Next counseling sessions are Wednesday. Will advise if anything juicy comes up.
FWIW, i continue to have faith that this is the time it works out for us. I think she has thrown in enough--and at least for right now i think she (W) at least believes she is fully committed to me and the MR-- that as long as I and MC don't let up on her we will make it through to the other side. There's just something different about her this time.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
The "Why" Seems like more a question for the Counselor. I suppose DonH could be on to something about her needing the constant validation... that would be consistent with what W and MC have explored in IC about W's rejection-filled past. Whatever it is, it is not a new behavior pattern for her, and certainly far predates her "WW" phase. Definitely more of a concern now, though, that she is in the recovery phase from that syndrome.
I guess that is one way to look at it. The other way is that this rejection-filled past has always had her in a state of waywardness. I worry about this same thing with my wife. She too has always craved acceptance and validation. And this made her especially vulnerable to OM's advances. Since she's always kept this to online emotional affairs, she could justify what she was doing as she would "never let it go physical". Thus her OEA in 2005, and the more recent one.
I think your approach of letting MC and IC handle it is the right one. Obviously her behavior the other night is not in keeping with what needs to be done for R.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Looks like I am back! I think there was a problem posting from my phone which stinks, because I wrote a nice long post.
But I'll keep this one short and get to my general point.
First, my personality is much like your wife, I am all woman, but can hang with the boys, and I click in most social situations. When I was married, I had boundaries, and when I became single, I maintained them, especially around guy friends who are married/taken. When I divorced, I did find a guys we hung out with had a crush on me. I also found out married men had a crush on me. Never ever crossed that line and made the effort not to make anyone uncomfortable.
That being said, your wife may be a 50 year old wife and mother, but seems to have mentality of a single woman in her 20's. She is looking for that attention. She likes to really test boundaries.
I think your best course of action right now would be changing your social setting. Local watering holes like Cheers where everyone knows everyone and is drinking and hanging out may not be the best setting for the way your wife behaves and for your stage in piecing. You want to hang out with friends? Invite a nice couple over to your house for dinner and drinks. Want to see live music? Go to a place where you don't know anyone, that has a cozier appeal where it could be the two of you in a booth (just an example) enjoying the music. Your M is just not solid enough nor is her ability to really respect boundaries solid enough right now to handle situations like bars where you would be likely to socialize with others. I would stick to socializing with couples more directly.
It's tough, for sure. But some changes in your socializing might have to be made for a while.
I think your best course of action right now would be changing your social setting. Local watering holes like Cheers where everyone knows everyone and is drinking and hanging out may not be the best setting for the way your wife behaves and for your stage in piecing. You want to hang out with friends? Invite a nice couple over to your house for dinner and drinks. Want to see live music? Go to a place where you don't know anyone, that has a cozier appeal where it could be the two of you in a booth (just an example) enjoying the music.
Its interesting you should say that, Ginger... The absolute best night we have had, prolly since this whole thing began, was a week ago last Friday when we went to a very small local club we had never been to before but which is known for its good music. We didn't know a soul, but we did sit in a little booth, kind of near the back, had our arms around each other, held hands, looked into each others' eyes, made out a little.. didn't talk to another soul except for the bartendress/waitress (same person.) Alot of older couples there, too. Average age was probably mid-40s, but there were a few youngsters an also a handful of mid-60's or so, as well as one couple who might have been mid to late 70s but were dancing up a storm. A LOT of dancing there, some good dancers, mostly swing dancing, which is something i want to do with her. She is a GREAT natural dancer but i am not... and it is something that i was always a little intimidated about, but now i am REALLY eager for us to do that. She actually came home today with a list of some of better places to get instruction and get an introduction to it from a woman who is one of the regular patients at her clinic (Actually the same woman who gave her the name of this same bar we went to.) At any rate, it was a really, really nice night.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I feel like you may have missed Ginger's point. I think she was saying that you may need to sacrifice something you enjoy doing (going to local bars where you know a lot of people) to keep you're wife away from an environment that is not healthy to a solid MR. I refer to local bars like you describe as a "Hookup House", and your W seems susceptible to advances of the males that attend these bars and have gotten good at knowing what to say to hook a girl quickly.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
I feel like you may have missed Ginger's point. I think she was saying that you may need to sacrifice something you enjoy doing (going to local bars where you know a lot of people) to keep you're wife away from an environment that is not healthy to a solid MR. I refer to local bars like you describe as a "Hookup House", and your W seems susceptible to advances of the males that attend these bars and have gotten good at knowing what to say to hook a girl quickly.
Not to mention that then she "plays innocent" later. Hoosjim you don't buy her explanation about "I don't know why they'd think that!" do you?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think Ginger's suggestions are great. If I were in a very familiar setting, like the Cheers Bar, I would probably be more comfortable......which means I would probably be more friendly than if I went to a new place. Don't we all? Your favorite watering hole becomes kind of like home, so you are more relaxed........maybe let down your guard more?
While your emotions are suffering from betrayal, it won't take much (I wouldn't think) for you to question or feel anxious/jealous whenever you see your W interact with other men. I mean, you certainly have reason to feel that way, and that's why I don't understand why your W isn't more aware of how she's pouring salt into the wound when she interacts with men. I have wondered if you try to tell yourself she doesn't intentionally act flirty or forward.....and that it's just her personality, and if other men get the wrong idea, then that's their problem (she has actually told you similar words).
I'm not trying to speak for Ginger, but we both have said we can kind of relate to your W b/c we, also, have a friendly, outgoing personality. However, we both have said that we have boundaries. When the woman is innocent of ulterior motives or even if she desires the male attention/flirting........she still lives by a code of conduct that shows respect for herself, as a lady, and for her H.
I'm saying, it's not just you. I'd dare say any H would have the same feelings.......maybe a lot worse. I hope the MC will press upon your W that having the attitude that she doesn't care what others think....including the men.........is just not acceptable in a MR. It would be especially cruel for the spouse that has been betrayed. But let the counselor handle this, b/c your W may see you trying to control/punish her. As you pointed out, this is some remaining rebelliousness.
In the 37 rules, the one most questioned is about not believing anything you hear and only half of what you see. Funny, b/c I had expected the most resistance to come about the rule to avoid bars. I suppose everyone just ignores it. .
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi, this is great insight. I think most wives would have handled it by coming back to the table and saying, "Hey those are the guys that were with "Keanu Reeves" last time. We should go over there and tell them that we think their friend looks like KR!" As you said, putting the added weight of their current problems, I would think HJ's wife would be even more sensitive in that regard.
However, I do wonder if alcohol might be part of the problem. We all know our inhibitions and judgment is affected by alcohol. I have a friend whose first wife turned into a huge flirt (I will refrain from stronger language, but it went beyond flirting to making out and worse) when she started drinking. Also remember one time years ago I was at a place with a friend and his GF (now wife). She was pretty drunk and started dirty dancing in front of me and grabbed my hands and put them on her waist. (I was neither drinking nor dancing.) I remember him telling me that turned into a huge argument. I can tell you that she would never have done without the alcohol.
Personally one of my boundaries would be no more drinking. But admittedly, in our society, that isn't going to be a popular opinion.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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