let me add this... there is more to taking full responsibility for one's mistakes than simply admitting guilt... i see this a lot... someone admits they did something wrong... says they take full responsibility, but then are surprised that they must actually face consequences...
this is where my H fell short... he didn't hold me to my promises... to my, "i'll do anything..." he let me gradually slide right back without challenging me...
the scenarios that your W is coming up with that allow her to keep BFF are so telling... she is saying, "i will do anything... BUT THAT!" until the next thing (office wine)... "i will do anything... BUT THAT AND THIS!"
for the time being, until she has a proven track record, you ought to not cave in here... when i finally cut my BFF out of my life, there did come a time when i could have reconnected on a lesser level, but by then, i didn't want to... i saw it for what it was, and i no longer had room in my life for that... your W has a ways to go before she gets there...
She accepted all the "boundaries and expectations" on my list, but has not been completely submissive and humble in doing so. Two weeks ago it was "please come back, I'll do anything" and now I'm hearing little things,like "This is what I want, and I'm willing to do all the things on this list to try to save our MR, but I'm also scared that you're never going to let me forget this, that I'm always going to be nervous and looking over my shoulder and afraid of making some little mistake or forgetting to tell you something" and "I worry that I'm never going to feel comfortable and you're never going to want me to hang out with my friends". I
She's verbally reversing the roles to make herself appear as the victim. I've seen this in many WW accounts. If the betrayed H doesn't stay on his toes, he'll start thinking he's got to earn her trust........or that he has to prove to her that he does trust her.
Quote:
In particular, while she cancelled her two get togethers in coming weeks with bff... she now wants me to talk with bff... "clear the air"... that bff is supportive of our MR because she sees and knows that that is what she (w) wants and what makes her (w) happy... that bff herself has changed and does not like the person she(bff) had become when hangin out with om... that bff is moving away and that she will rarely if ever see her after that... that she would like to find a way to "make it safe for you (me, hj) , for me (w) to see bff... You (me, hj) could even go to dinner with us, stay nearby, even at same hotel maybe... and me and bff and gf could go ahead and have our birthday slumber party." (This would be in june). That "she's giving up all this other stuff snd shed really like it if she could swe bff that weekend".
This is just sickening. But I'm not a bit surprised, b/c I felt she could let go of OM much easier than letting go of BFF. How you controlled yourself when she suggested you could stay nearby while they had their slumber party...........what is she, twelve years old? How would she feel if that scenario was reversed and it was you having an all night party while she had to stay someplace else? She almost appears as if she's missing a link.......but actually, it is that old selfishness that is driving her vehicle at the moment. She sounds like a teenager who has been grounded b/c of her own bad behavior, and she's protesting and trying to convince the parent that she deserves to continue seeing BFF and have overnight parties. She even insults you by suggesting you and BFF just talk it out.
Yes, I agree with you that she has not had enough time to process, and this is that old selfish rebellion rising up to be heard.
All that stuff about the doctor and her getting pi$$ed at what you said........... She can twist and turn it in all directions, and she can get defensive and haughty......but it's one of two things here, Either she doesn't know where to draw the line when interacting with other men........or else she does know, but if need be.... she can spin it around and play dumb and try to make herself appear like an innocent child. She doesn't get to have it both ways.......and I think that's what she may be trying here.
I think she'll start protesting more (in her own special way), b/c she doesn't want to follow the rules about behaving like a M woman. If that infected core (whatever it may be) can be cut out, I think the MR will heal and be very good. Whatever is in her spirit that wants to rebell against behaving like a good girl........has not been resolved. She has confessed her wrong actions. She has said how sorry she was about the OM.........and I think she meant it. She saw you walking out on her, and she immediately decided you were her priority and OM could go.
Don't get me wrong, I think she's done well. A lot of WW's would not be working with the IC/MC. I also think a big part of it was emotional reaction in trying to secure her situation. She would have promised you anything to get you back and secure that part of her world. Up to this point, she has been willing to do what you requested and has followed the MC instructions, etc. I maintain that having her willingness is highly important. If she's not willing.....it's all a waste of time.
When she starts to feel that things are more secure, she will start trying to back peddle on some of the boundaries. And, I think as much as we've discussed in the past, you surely expected to see some protest along the way.
I see your W trying to get you to compromise. As if she's saying, "I've been good in one area. I've done everything you've said.....for nearly three weeks! So, don't you agree that I have earned the privilege of having a girls slumber party? Can't you and BFF just kiss and make up, for my sake? Are you going to punish me for the rest of my life?"
I think she'll use the "your punishing me" card to get you to relent on some of your stipulations. She knows how to get to you. The board can even tell when she's getting to you.
Now after saying all of that above, I do not want you to be discouraged, b/c I think it is coming along......but just bear in mind that she hasn't done that inner work. I say this all the time, that the WW's hardest work is fixing her heart. I don't mean just how she feels toward her H, necessarily. I mean the resentment, selfishness, rebellion........all that stuff that's at the core of her wayward mindset. I'll be interested in seeing what Artista says. She may not agree, but I think there are a lot of positive moves that's been made.......however, your W still has an issue within herself that she has to resolve.
I am so happy that you two are having sex again! Now listen, the first time she acts like she's pulling back.......address it then, and don't let that distance come between you again. I mean, to think this has been a SSM for nearly a decade........even if the timing was questionable, I'm still happy about it, b/c you've passed that first time of being intimate again. And, b/c it didn't end with that one time. This doesn't signify sealing the deal.....but it sure is a nice......ah.....oh, whatever. It's nice.
BTW, if the MC tries to get you to reveal your method of tracking your W during the A........never tell. Never ever tell. If you have a chance in IC, you might consider telling her not to bring it up b/c you refuse to reveal your source......and it won't go well. Anyway, those are just my thoughts.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I would hate to see you in a similar situation in a few months. I know you were opposed to her leaving her current job, but I put myself in your shoes. If a year from now she were to be involved with the doctor, I would be kicking myself that I didn't make a different decision a year earlier.
Peace brother, I will be praying for you and your situation.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
re: the make-up sex. You guys went from barely any contact to this magnificent sex when she got caught. Then after an argument regarding her going back on her "I'll do anything", you have make-up sex. Keep your eyes open that she isn't suing sex as a weapon to get what she wants or to keep you happy or quiet when she wants to cross boundaries.
I see her convincing you to be loose with your boundaries. But she promised anything and I think you should stick to them.
from sandi2: I also think a big part of it was emotional reaction in trying to secure her situation.
this is what i have been saying all along... all her "doing the right things, hitting rock bottom" was her reacting to hoosjim walking out on her... her goal was to get him back home, and to get him to stay... she did that with her long letter, her crying in her room saying all the right things as if someone were listening in on her... running to MC and making appointments for IC... when MC and hoosjim started laying out the boundaries, W wrinkled her nose at the BFF boundary... MC reminded her that she said she was willing to make certain sacrifices to get hoosjim back to work on the marriage... remember one of her text messages to hoosjim said, "i can fix this." this is what she meant... she can smooth things over... and now that things are "smoothed over," she is ready to go back to her wayward-heart attitude...
hoosjim must follow through on his boundaries... she is belittling the pain she caused by not respecting his boundaries... she needs to be reminded that he did not need to come back and that the hoosjim that gave her the benefit of the doubt while she was still wayward is no longer... he is now the hoosjim who jumped into that Uber because he was through with all the bull$h1+...
at this point, with her heart still not changed, with her trying to still process things "her way," i give her no credit... unless she comes to accept that those boundaries are non-negotiable, she is doing what she did before: appearing to be working on the marriage... hoosjim and CW both have WW that i believe i can see right through...
that she is trying to get hoosjim to acquiesce on the boundaries says that she DOES NOT RESPECT HIM... he needs to nip this in the bud... NOW... seriously, i want to shake some reality into that girl!
I don't agree it's about disrespect, per se, at least not on a conscious level. I think she has an intense fear of intimacy that runs into Jim's own fear of abandonment, and that results in a chronic, entrenched pursuit/distance dynamic, where Jim is most of the time over the arc of their relationship pursuing, trying to close the intimacy gap he feels (not incorrectly), and she is most of the time distancing so as to keep real intimacy at bay. Her distancing moves feel like disrespect because they by design hurt and push Jim away, and maybe she doesn't on some levels respect Jim, but I think it's mainly just the way they've always been: Jim wanting true intimacy, trying to take that one step toward her that will calm his inner fear, and her being deeply fearful of exactly that and not being able to give it to him, retreating at times (moodiness, ennui, sighing) and others more affirmatively pushing him away (withholding, playing the victim, bff/wine downs, OM, etc.).
Occasionally, and most recently with the return of OM, Jim has been pushed so far away that he stops pursuit and does something that makes her fear that she may have lost him for good. She also has a fear of abandonment (though it is decidedly secondary to her primary fear), and she pursues him intensely but only briefly. But, pretty quickly, because he wants intimacy so badly and leaps at her pursuit, the old dynamic returns, she stops fearing abandonment, her primary fear of intimacy rears its head again, and she starts distancing. Lather, rinse, repeat. These moves on her part, then, aren't so much about affirmative "disrespect" as they are because she makes herself vulnerable, understands that they are in that moment approaching real intimacy, and she gets spooked and moves to return things to where they were: back not to a happy place but to one that is at least less scary.
Jim's journey is toward happiness with, and love of, Self. He's on this path but traveling in fits and starts and prone (like most of us) to backsliding (I'd have had sex in your position, too, for sure). She needs to get at why she is so fearful of intimacy. She doesn't seem to be on that path yet at all, though.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
I don't agree it's about disrespect, per se, at least not on a conscious level. I think she has an intense fear of intimacy that runs into Jim's own fear of abandonment, and that results in a chronic, entrenched pursuit/distance dynamic, where Jim is most of the time over the arc of their relationship pursuing, trying to close the intimacy gap he feels (not incorrectly), and she is most of the time distancing so as to keep real intimacy at bay. Her distancing moves feel like disrespect because they by design hurt and push Jim away, and maybe she doesn't on some levels respect Jim, but I think it's mainly just the way they've always been: Jim wanting true intimacy, trying to take that one step toward her that will calm his inner fear, and her being deeply fearful of exactly that and not being able to give it to him, retreating at times (moodiness, ennui, sighing) and others more affirmatively pushing him away (withholding, playing the victim, bff/wine downs, OM, etc.).
Occasionally, and most recently with the return of OM, Jim has been pushed so far away that he stops pursuit and does something that makes her fear that she may have lost him for good. She also has a fear of abandonment (though it is decidedly secondary to her primary fear), and she pursues him intensely but only briefly. But, pretty quickly, because he wants intimacy so badly and leaps at her pursuit, the old dynamic returns, she stops fearing abandonment, her primary fear of intimacy rears its head again, and she starts distancing. Lather, rinse, repeat. These moves on her part, then, aren't so much about affirmative "disrespect" as they are because she makes herself vulnerable, understands that they are in that moment approaching real intimacy, and she gets spooked and moves to return things to where they were: back not to a happy place but to one that is at least less scary.
Jim's journey is toward happiness with, and love of, Self. He's on this path but traveling in fits and starts and prone (like most of us) to backsliding (I'd have had sex in your position, too, for sure). She needs to get at why she is so fearful of intimacy. She doesn't seem to be on that path yet at all, though.
i agree with just about everything you said regarding their dynamic... conscious level or not, she knows right from wrong... and she knows what she is doing... she is manipulating, and that takes a lot of active thinking... when it comes down to it, her (as well as my own) attitude is wayward... it's a heart matter... this reconciliation is their opportunity to address it... fix it...
if he doesn't nip this in the bud, she will stray again, and the next confrontation will not be as dramatic as this last one... she will not totally freak out and do anything and everything to keep the marriage together... by then she will be angry at hoosjim... she will have an attitude of fnck 1t... this is his chance to follow through, and her chance to really have a changed heart... i believe they both want this marriage... i believe they have had an unhealthy dynamic--which you described vividly... i believe that what they do at this point in their piecing will determine whether or not they will be successful--or at least it will determine how long it takes them to get there, and how much more pain has to be experienced...
i agree, she does not seem to be on that path yet at all...
That is very interesting, JRuss, and I am inclined to agree that it's not just about her lack of respect for Jim (although that is my go-to word). I think there is something deeper at work in Jim's W. You sound very informed, and I would love to hear more......and ask what you saw in his W that draws your conclusion of her fearing intimacy?
I can also agree about her using sex to secure Jim. I saw it immediately when she started playing footsie with him on the Sunday they met in that small town to talk. Perhaps I am nieve, but I hoped it broke the ice, so to speak......even though she used it to secure her position in the relationship. She certainly wouldn't be the first woman to use sex to gain favor with her man. As long as Jim has no misconceptions that sex has sealed the deal.........as many LBH's seem to think......and if he stays on his toes as someone mentioned, I can't help but hope this could be a portion of their healing from a decade of a SSM. However, if it's like JRuss has suggested and she has a fear of intimacy........then, I think she will pull away pretty soon. I won't be surprised to see it disguised as her pouting over Jim's boundaries. Anyway, after reading JRuss's post, I am intrigued.
Steve, the doctor is not the issue in this sitch. The issue is within the mindset of Jim's wife! Therefore, if they move away from the doctor and the OM......her mindset moves with them. Until she works through the real issues, there will always be men on the scene (where ever they choose to live) and she will be tempted to push boundaries. The reason I direct this to you, is b/c it's important that you see how the doctor and OM are manifestations of her deeper issues. That's not to excuse her behavior in any way, but moving away from every man that comes on the scene, is not the answer. It worries me, greatly, that you would gladly be in that position.
I want to express, again, how thankful I am that Artista has given her much needed insight.......and a much fresher memory. My experience was light, in comparison. In fact, a lot of what I write is based on what I have learned through other people's experiences and the information I gained through studying the subject of waywardness. Every sitch has a touch of uniqueness, and the solutions are not always as black & white or as simple as our advice might imply.
Anyway, I'll turn the thread back over to its owner.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Generally in cheaters, you have to watch the elastic in the knickers and zips on the flies. Otherwise they are just treating their LBS as if they were an OP.
There are as many OPs out there as there are scuzzies and dirt bags. One is easily replaced by another.
They can be lining up at an open door.
Only the cheater can close that door, it can't be left open even a little chink and it will creep open again. And the queue starts lining up again.
As Arista so aptly says that door must be bolted locked from the inside and the keys given to the LBS. No discussion, and hard work done to atone.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Steve, the doctor is not the issue in this sitch. The issue is within the mindset of Jim's wife! Therefore, if they move away from the doctor and the OM......her mindset moves with them. Until she works through the real issues, there will always be men on the scene (where ever they choose to live) and she will be tempted to push boundaries. The reason I direct this to you, is b/c it's important that you see how the doctor and OM are manifestations of her deeper issues. That's not to excuse her behavior in any way, but moving away from every man that comes on the scene, is not the answer. It worries me, greatly, that you would gladly be in that position.
Oh I agree 100%. The problem is that doc and OM have history with her. That's what makes her mindset especially problematic around them. Otherwise what is the point of no contact with the OM.
I'm not suggesting a move, but I think Jim should have taken her up on her offer of quitting the job. Should could have always found another one. It would have gotten het away from doc, and shown her resolve to work on the MR. Like I said before, I think her offer to leave her job was a ploy knowing Jim would say no. If he'd called her on her bluff I think the rebellion to the boundaries would have occurred much quicker.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
But I'm not a bit surprised, b/c I felt she could let go of OM much easier than letting go of BFF. How you controlled yourself when she suggested you could stay nearby while they had their 
She can twist and turn it in all directions, and she can get defensive and haughty......but it's one of two things here, Either she doesn't know where to draw the line when interacting with other men........or else she 
Now listen, the first time she acts like she's pulling back.......address it 
