I am glad you are here. I hope you will continue to post and read the advice. I think you need a lot of help! I felt a small glimmer of hope when I read the responses from 25 and artista (because it was paining me that no one was chiming in appropriately IMO) and that you, YOURSELF recognize how dysfunctional and damaging this all is. I am truly sorry that your M and life is like this. I am a very direct poster, so please know that I am not singling you out here. It's how I role.
Just because one S isn't walking away, having an active A, or threatening D, does not mean that your sitch is any less critical. In fact, I see your sitch as very critical. I am glad you feel your children are well adjusted because this is an incredibly dysfunctional and abusive(from your H) M that you are in! And while kids can still thrive and grow into healthy adults, seeing an R like this (and that it's their parents) does affect them greatly. They are forming their views on relationships by observing both of you and your interactions (or lack there of).
I have read most of your sitch but not every word. I can't, it's painful to read some of it. My stomach is turning a bit TBH. I see your husband as troubled, insecure, jealous, and emotionally abusive and controlling of you. You seem to have some insight on this (thankfully) but also realize that when you are the victim of the abuse, it is very difficult to see it clearly. I was in a relationship like this for about 6 years, and now 20 years later, looking back on it, I see it very differently! I feel sorry for my younger self and wish I had gotten out sooner. We did have one child, and yes it was hard to leave.
You speak (type) in absolutes. He will never forgive me. He will never love me again. I made the worst mistake. I can never change the past. He needs me to want him. Because you had a fling many years ago and talked to a guy too long at a party, you are to blame for the M problems? And even if you don't see it that way, he does? I wish you could see this from my side of the computer! You know what my H did? We also have been together many years and have 3 kids FYI. He had an EA with kissing for about 8 months with one of my BFs and then left our home and had a full on A (relationship) with her for about 10 months. Left his W and kids for W's "friend" for 1.5 years! What a scumbbag right?!? You don't have to tell me, girl, I know :-)
So that was many years ago. We have both decided we want the M to work and do not want D. We have been through therapy, M programs, both worked on ourselves, and we both have decided yes, we want to make this work. It is SOOOO much hard work tho. On both our parts. Making this work means accepting the past and our mistakes (I have plenty of those too), or at least trying to. It means understanding why they happened in the first place and how to not repeat them. It means forgiving each other often and if we can't, then asking ourselves why not. Then working on ourselves further. It means working together as a team, even when we don't agree on stuff, because we know we have to raise these kids together (whether we are M or D). It means communicating well and acting like grown-ups, even when we are mad, upset, or triggered. It means valuing our choice over our feelings sometimes. It means caring when our partner is hurt, even when they are wrong. It means way too many things to list here. It also means we will always be a work in progress.
It does NOT mean holding power over one another or being "right" all of the time. It certainly does NOT mean "punishing each other," or withholding love and affection, for mistakes. It does not mean that being right is more important than doing what works, and by that I mean doing what works for BOTH people. In a healthy M, everyone makes mistakes, and yes some are big (like the one my H made) and some are small (like your mistakes). Actually, I am not even here to judge what is big and small. We each decide what is small or big for us. I just have the feeling that no matter what you do -- big or small -- your husband will blame you and hold it against you. He has belittled you, punished you, withheld love and affection, and he has done this for years. And that my dear, is ABUSE.
Do you see where I am going here? This is not just a M that needs repairing, this is a critical situation. I don't know how much advice here will help you. You describe that you are trying to be a great mom, W, 180, GAL, etc. Yet you pride yourself on not being social; is that because you think that makes you a good girl in his eyes? I happen to think that any woman should freely decide who to go out with and how many drinks to have. If your H wants a perfect woman, well then he will never find her! And I am sorry, but you cannot be her either. No one is.
This got long winded. Sorry about that. It may also be a giant 2*4 that you were not expecting. I am sorry about that too. I am not going to tell you to leave your H because that is not my place. I hear (read) that you want this to work, and especially for your 4 kids. What I will say though, is that he is abusive. And you are choosing to stay in an abusive R. You do not have to do that. But the reality in your sitch is that HE IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Before that happens, I don't know how much you can fix this M on your own.
So in the mean time, I hope you will continue to take great and gentle care of yourself! Follow Sandis rules, they are golden. Get a life, 180, and get some counseling and emotional support. This could help you see things more clearly. You can still start by GAL, keep being a great a mom, have some fun, join new groups and make new friends, go out and be social (because everyone needs that), and love yourself first always! YOU deserve that! Hopefully as you can nurture your soul and get stronger, you can come to make decisions based on what you then know you deserve.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Looks like I was posting that the same time as V. Thank you for that link, V. Helena, I hope you can take in all of these words. It's a lot to process and it's been many years with this man. I am sorry for the painful truth darts, we know how hard it is.
Best, Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
This could be a coincidence. Or I could be right, he's using what I tell him as ammunition to hurt me as much as humanly possible. I'm asking myself, does it matter? It kind of does because it changes the type of person I'm dealing with. If it's a coincidence that it IS possible he could change his mind and we could fix things. If it's not a coincidence, then he's got some personality issues that are most likely never going to change. And I'm wasting my time here.
So, the answer to your two questions are "yes" and "maybe."
Yes, he is using what you tell him against you. You must stop pouring your heart out to him. This is what this board is for.
Maybe it matters that he's doing it. And I am going to put a big fat asterisk next to that. ALL people manipulate. All people lash out. Those who know us best also tend to lash out in ways that hurt the most because they know where to hurt. That is within the range of normal. Whether HE is within the range of normal is something only you know. Do you believe that he has crossed the line?
If he's lashing out, then yes, it is fixable. He can get help and, in time, you two will be fine.
If you think that... I'm just going to come right out and say it. If you think that he's deriving pleasure from what he's doing, then yes, it's fixable, but you really need to think if you're in it for the long haul, because it may well be more than what you have signed up for.
Me: 28 H: 30 T: 9 M: 7
WAH: First half of 2017. Round 2 started in Spring 2018.
Your situation is so bad for your kids. It didn't take 4 years for your son to notice that his parents don't sleep together. It took 4 yrs for him to mention it... He knows it's not right, but you know what? It's what he will come to know as normal. This disfunctional dynamic is shaping your children and their expectations for relationships...
Your husband is unreasonable, and you will never be able to reason with him. You can try all you want to be the woman he married, but you will never achieve that. In his eyes you are tainted. And he is unteachable... He is set on being miserable, and it's because he is set on making you miserable. That is what is most important to him.
He calls you selfish. HE is the selfish one. HE is putting himself above his kids, not willing to work on the marriage, which is the foundation of his family.
Do you care that he thinks you are so selfish for not wanting to go on this way? You shouldn't... He is an unreasonable, selfish and cruel man. His opinion is worth nada... He doesn't have the last word on what happens with your kids. He loves his anger toward you more than he loves his kids... That is what he has shown you...
Of course he is going to think you are selfish for GAL... Most Walkaways do... But you have to get to the place where his opinion does not guide you... He already has a low opinion of you anyway... He already thinks you are selfish...
What you are doing is not working. You need to change things up. You need to put your mental, physical and spiritual health above his opinion of you... And you need to put your children above your love for him...
You said it: He is egotistical, manipulative and a master at mind games... Why would you give someone like that top consideration?
THIS^^^^^.
Your h is everything he angrily accuses you of. Major gaslighting and projections going on.
And you took the bait with the guilt as if You are the cause of TODAY'S problems in the m.
you are not.
Good grief. Your h is very entitled, he's so entitled that he gets to abuse you AND blame you. Which is the definition of an abusive relationship.
And your kids KNOW FAR FAR more than you realize.
When I learned what MY kids saw and believed and realized before I had, it brought me to my knees. I was in such denial, and so mistaken about staying FOR the kids
versus leaving, FOR the kids.
As I said, this is not that complicated. It's just so very hard. And deeply painful. But you have no painless choices.
Oh btw, GAL is not something to do in order for you to leave, it's needed for you to survive no matter what choice you make.
Taking your focus on the marriage and its' demise and putting it on what brings you joy
- and as you state, there is no "marriage" now.
For the most part, You are barely civil housemates who made kids and are pretending to be partners.
And you both love your kids. Don't overlook the possibility of enjoying them, while not being married.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
There's so much to think about here, it's going to take me a while to read it all carefully. I have a lot of thoughts but I'm really tired.
I will just say that tonight H was somehow nicer to me. Just the "pretend" I'm sure, and I just can't bring myself to care either way. Both little guys wanted to come with him and older son so that left me home with older daughter. TJ Maxx and Mexican, duh!!! We had a nice time shopping, I wasn't in my happiest of moods but we still enjoyed our time together. At Mexican she asked me again about what was happening between Daddy and I and wanted to know if it is serious enough that someone is going to have to move out. I asked her if Daddy has said anything to her at all (I just feel like it's wrong to talk to the kids about this without him present). She said she asked him and he told her "nothing was wrong from his perspective". So, he's definitely laid the groundwork with them that if anything happens, it's my decision. I just told her that I didn't know. Honestly. And that we would let her know together when we did know. She wanted to know what it was about...she said the last time you guys had a major fight it was about he company party, did something else happen? I said no, nothing else happened. She said she just wanted us to be happy and wasn't worried at all that they wouldn't be loved enough or taken care of enough. She also said "I know how he is". I told her I know they have eyeballs and that if there was anything I could do to change it I would. But we're trying. Her and I were both crying, she came and sat with me on my side of the booth and I felt both relieved to have some sort of talk with her and yet sad that this wasn't a conversation H and I could have had with both older kids together. I'm just not sure that will ever happen honestly because I'm not sure we'll *ever* be on that same page together. She said "I know that if comes to that, you guys will work together. Because anything other than that WOULD make me mad." I told her it would be 50/50, for sure. But if she thinks it would be cordial, I'm afraid she doesn't know her Daddy nearly as well as she thinks she does.
I'm exhausted. And sad. And a little numb....and perhaps I should be grateful for that. Step by step we approach the end.
Goodnight.
M: 43, H: 44 Married 18 yrs, Together 26 yrs S17, D15, D8, S6 Still living in MH
She said she just wanted us to be happy and wasn't worried at all that they wouldn't be loved enough or taken care of enough. She also said "I know how he is"...
She said "I know that if comes to that, you guys will work together. Because anything other than that WOULD make me mad."
wow... i can only go by what you have shared here... i do not know your daughter, and i am not privy to the tone of voice, but it seems to me that your daughter was giving your "permission" or at least "understanding" if you decided to do something more drastic about your situation...
You know when you have that feeling that the way someone is treating you just doesn’t make sense and you’re missing a piece of the puzzle....I don’t know if I’m being smart in listening to my gut or if I’m letting the way I feel about H right now interfere with my ability to think straight and maybe it’s making me paranoid. Lack of trust does crazy things to someone’s mind.
Anyway...I just can’t shake this feeling that there’s something I don’t know. H gave up FB about a year ago, no real reason given, just that it was taking too much of his time. Which he spends surfing the internet anyway when they’re not busy at work but I just figured he had better stuff to surf. I noticed on H’s Facebook yesterday that he is now friends with an ex-girlfriend from high school...the girl he dated before me actually. Her mother made them stop dating bc she did not like the way H was with her daughter and H confessed to me when we started dating that he had behaved obsessively with her....he had even snuck into their home and read this girls diary. I don’t know if they knew he did that or not. Anyway, they are friends on FB and I feel like this is something he should have mentioned. It’s weirding me out quite a bit. I also noticed that there are two large payments in his bank account to a credit card company. We don’t use credit. He has an Amex card he uses for work trips. I’ve never seen a statement and was unaware he has this card. Two separate payments, one day apart, totaling like $1500.
Should I mention either of these things? If they are nothing, it would make look completely paranoid and really bad. If they are something he wouldn’t confess anyway so I probably shouldn’t mention it right?
M: 43, H: 44 Married 18 yrs, Together 26 yrs S17, D15, D8, S6 Still living in MH
You know when you have that feeling that the way someone is treating you just doesn’t make sense and you’re missing a piece of the puzzle....I don’t know if I’m being smart in listening to my gut or if I’m letting the way I feel about H right now interfere with my ability to think straight and maybe it’s making me paranoid. Lack of trust does crazy things to someone’s mind.
Anyway...I just can’t shake this feeling that there’s something I don’t know. H gave up FB about a year ago, no real reason given, just that it was taking too much of his time. Which he spends surfing the internet anyway when they’re not busy at work but I just figured he had better stuff to surf. I noticed on H’s Facebook yesterday that he is now friends with an ex-girlfriend from high school...the girl he dated before me actually. Her mother made them stop dating bc she did not like the way H was with her daughter and H confessed to me when we started dating that he had behaved obsessively with her....he had even snuck into their home and read this girls diary. I don’t know if they knew he did that or not. Anyway, they are friends on FB and I feel like this is something he should have mentioned. It’s weirding me out quite a bit. I also noticed that there are two large payments in his bank account to a credit card company. We don’t use credit. He has an Amex card he uses for work trips. I’ve never seen a statement and was unaware he has this card. Two separate payments, one day apart, totaling like $1500.
Should I mention either of these things? If they are nothing, it would make look completely paranoid and really bad. If they are something he wouldn’t confess anyway so I probably shouldn’t mention it right?
hmmmm... i will let others chime in here as far as what you ought to do with these findings... but i will say, he is gaslighting you big time... be prepared to hear him say because of your betrayals, he has every right to do what he's doing... maybe you just sit on it and when he is belitting you, shaming you, you just say, "yeah--well maybe your keeping a couple of secrets yourself..." that way he doesn't really know if you really know anything... and he doesn't know what you know...
personally, i am against LBSs not letting the WW spouse know that they know they are up to no good... my H knew about my unfaithfulness for a very long time before he said anything, and i think he made a mistake in keeping it to himself for so long...
my only reservation here is, i do not know when or how you ought to mention it, except in the way i just said... in passing when he is mistreating you verbally...
I'm so sorry. There is a saying that if it smells like chit, it's chit. Quite simply, trust your instincts. Always. Because they are always right. Your gut just knows when there is OW: I knew for months before I had any indications. I just felt something was off.
My advice is to SAY NOTHING. Right now that would only blow up the situation and make things worse. He will lie and get more defensive. Then he will further cover his tracks. In the mean time, you can quietly gather more intel and save the proof. Unexplained purchases are one of the biggest red flags.
Everything you describe indicates he is having an A. This also explains his blame shifting and trying to put the focus on your wrong doings. It's so crummy, yet so predictable. I still think his behavior his abuse (with or without an A). There are plenty of people that have As, that still do not treat their S in the way he has treated you. The way he treats you is awful.
People that have As also tend to be the most jealous and insecure; they don't trust others because they don't actually trust themselves. He is being increasingly abusive and belittling you because he doesn't want to look at his own behavior. Has he ever in the many years you have known him self-reflected, been vulnerable and remorseful for a mistake, and then changed as a result? Personally, I need a partner that is mature enough to do this.
You seem like a very smart woman. I think you should keep this new info close to your vest. He also has basically pulled the (without saying) "I love you, but I am not in love with you" card. i.e. He wants to remain with you as a family, but states he will never love you again. BINGO. This is classic A talk. Most of us on this board heard this when our S was having an A.
Can you keep this to yourself? It's not easy. Can you continue to follow Sandi's rules, detach, and let this unfold while you come up with your plan? Perhaps in the mean time, you can consult an L and get some questions answered. I am not sure you will want to salvage a M with a man like this. He sounds like a miserable and cruel person.
I really am sorry you are tangled in this. Please take good care of yourself! Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
