[Olya]

There's a proverb that goes something like this: A word is not a sparrow - once it gets out, you can't catch it.

Do you want your husband, or do you want a divorce? Because from we're he's at emotionally, if you say the "D" word to him, that's exactly what you are going to get. If you want you marriage back, talking about divorce is not the way to do it - it will not make him realize that his hurts are superficial and it will not make him run back to you.

Setting a hard timeline is also not how you do it. It took you 20 years to get into this mess. Do you think that a year's time frame is realistic? What happens if it's halfway better at the end of that year?

My advice to you is to do a 180, to get a life, and to think very carefully about what you want. Talk to a divorce lawyer. Talk to a financial planner. See how much this will run you. But do not discuss this matter with him and certainly do not give him an ultimatum. At least then you'll know that you tried and that you've made an informed decision.

[HelenaJ]

Times like when your marriage is a model of resentment, grudge holding, no expression of love, no emotional intimacy, and probably not a lot of what you want your kids to learn.

We did have a good number of happy years after OM situation and before the company party thing. We definitely had expressions of love and the kids definitely saw it. Since the company party there have been lots of ups and downs and feelings like things weren't quite right and in the last year or two in particular things have taken a very downward spiral. My Dad died in October 2016 and the circumstances surrounding it were a lot for any person to bear. I really needed my H and there were several situations following that where I could just sense that the way he was treating me was intentional and it was definitely not love. Anyway, my point is that our M has not been this consistently horrible for the entire 4 years.

Plus it sounds like your needs are not being met by a long shot, and for some time.

This is very true. And for some reason it's like this flat out refusal on his part. It was like that even before he had reason to be hurt....and of course part of what led TO his being hurt. I love surfing Pinterest and I've come across a lot lately on narcissism and I've been reading just about every article I find....soooo much of what I read feels very familiar to me.

I know you are torn, but I don't think this is complicated. It's just super hard.

This is so simply put but so profound to me. I guess the only thing that complicates it for me is my guilt. Had I not done anything at all to bring it on, I guess it would be easier. I feel so responsible but yet there is nothing I can do to fix it.

Sounds like he's giving himself permission to abuse you.

Absolutely. I do see that. But if he were to stop tomorrow, I would continue on with him in a heartbeat. And that is the lure....he stopped himself before maybe he will stop himself again.

The woman of grace and dignity who is not concerned with being "right" as much as living a life of grace and dignity - AND in the face of abuse, be a woman of strength and self respect.

This is my mantra. I could say so many things to H, try to go tit for tat on who did what or why we are where we are. But I don't. For this very reason. He would not care anyway. While its sad to have to keep your feelings to yourself, it is better than handing them over to someone who will simply act like you never said a word anyway. Never acknowledge, never care enough to ask questions...he either stays silent or it goes back to him. I won't sacrifice myself anymore.

Thank you for your insight, I can see you've been around here a long time and seen a lot of different situations so your advice comes with a lot of credibility and I appreciate it.

[HelenaJ]

I know that rebuilding a life for myself is supposed to sound appealing but it doesn't. I loved my life. I learned to live with the things in my M that made me unhappy and we had a lot of great times as a family. H and I have always struggled as a "couple" but I just tried not to dwell on it...overall I was happy. I feel like I went to sleep and woke up and my life was in shambles. I ruined everything and didn't even realize I was doing it. The shock and disbelief and horror at the way he feels about me talking to that guy that night, the way he blames me and the way he's treated me as a result have been....trauma inducing frankly. I did not EVER see myself back in this position with him. I know I can't live like this forever....I hope that in time he will stop. And if he doesn't, then I know what I will have to do.

[HelenaJ]

Do you want your husband, or do you want a divorce? Because from we're he's at emotionally, if you say the "D" word to him, that's exactly what you are going to get. If you want you marriage back, talking about divorce is not the way to do it - it will not make him realize that his hurts are superficial and it will not make him run back to you.

I definitely do NOT want a divorce. But I don't feel like this is my choice either. He's emotionally divorced me already, he just hasn't filed papers. He's taken away every tenant of marriage...the wedding ring, sleeping in the marital bed, going anywhere socially, purposely keeping his heart from me, saying we'll never be intimate again. What marriage do we have left??

Setting a hard timeline is also not how you do it. It took you 20 years to get into this mess. Do you think that a year's time frame is realistic? What happens if it's halfway better at the end of that year?

I think when a situation has gone on as long as mine, you eventually have to give yourself some sort of permission to exit...setting a timeline just helps you to see that you tried and gave it your best. Is a year too arbitrary? Maybe. If it's half better by the end of the year, would I still leave? No way. I'm not asking for a miracle, I'm just asking for some forward movement from him.

My advice to you is to do a 180, to get a life, and to think very carefully about what you want. Talk to a divorce lawyer. Talk to a financial planner. See how much this will run you. But do not discuss this matter with him and certainly do not give him an ultimatum. At least then you'll know that you tried and that you've made an informed decision.

My 180 is not initiating any R talk whatsoever and I'm also not going to entertain his attempts if they are just going to focus on telling me how horrible I am and how I've destroyed him and destroyed us etc. etc.
I have seen attorneys already....I know if it comes to that, it will be horrible and I will need every ounce of support I can get. I would never tell him I've met with attorneys nor would I announce any thoughts of a timeline. This is all for me, to get straight inside my own head, that I've done my best.

[Olya]

He hasn't filed yet, has he? He hasn't cheated on you. He hasn't moved out.

Pretty sure those are some clear signs.

I'd suggest you work on GAL on top of not initiating relationship talks.

[HelenaJ]

No he hasn't done any of those things, but this is not the beacon of light that it might seem like. He is telling me that we need to remain a family for the sake of our kids and we need to "pretend" so that they don't have a broken home.

[Olya]

Yep! It has come to this! Now I'm the one saying it:

"Believe none of what he says and half of what he does."


Even if he was staying with you only for the kids (which I doubt very much), that would not preclude him from having an affair.

Look, even if your husband is super-religious, that has yet to stop anyone from having affairs, paying for OWs' abortions, walking out on their family, or snorting coke off strippers. People who want to do those things will not be stopped by obligations, faith, or even plain self-interest in maintaining a career and a public image. They will do it with the same blind compulsion that drives me to go to a hole-in-the-wall diner and eat a sandwich once a month (no matter what diet I'm on--I'm out of control, truly).

Your husband isn't doing any of that. The most simple answer is because he doesn't want to.

And, by the way, staying together for kids means that he gets to spend time with you and the kids and has plenty of opportunity to see how fun and pretty you are. Use that.

[HelenaJ]

Even if he was staying with you only for the kids (which I doubt very much), that would not preclude him from having an affair.

I hear you. An affair is not always the culprit in every failed M, as you know, but I am grateful that there's not a third person involved as that would absolutely make things more complicated. Or perhaps easier?? At least then things would make sense. What he's doing right now makes no sense to me. I agree that the most simple answer as to why he's not having an affair is because he doesn't want to but there are tons of reasons not to compromise one's own sense of morals and not much of it has to do with anyone or anything else as you pointed out. So, I'm not sure I can take any real comfort in the fact that he's not having an A.

I completely agree with you that there is plenty of opportunity for me to be able to demonstrate change and 180s and all of the things that we all talk about here and that are so very helpful with navigating these crazy waters we're all walking through. I keep coming back to your question...."do you want your husband or do you want a divorce?" I want my H which is why I'm still here, but is it healthy to still want my H at this point. I 100% guarantee that even if he came around enough for us to go back to our usual normal that he would not be willing to address the emotional abandonment and abuse that has taken place over the last several months because in his mind, I absolutely 100% deserve it.

**Update**
So, the general state of our R is that we do not speak. I will speak to him about the kids and that is about it. I can barely look at him really. All R talk has been through text and that's mostly because he's been out of the country but even now that he's back, I could not bring myself to have an in-person conversation with him. There's really no way to describe how he turns things around, refuses to address certain topics, belittles me....the conversations never go anywhere, nothing gets resolved, I never feel heard and I'm always at fault. There's just no way to describe it so that another person can understand without seeing it for themselves. I've taken to sharing all his texts with my sister so she can understand what I'm talking about. I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to read his texts anymore much less sit down and converse with him. I say that only to give an overall picture of what the dynamics are right now. H is the master of mind games and I really don't think any 180 I do is any match for him....especially if he's telling me the truth, that he really wants this no couple scenario. The only 180s I could do are ones that I think are going to widen the gap between us anyway. He is already convinced that I "do whatever I want", which makes it sound like I'm a selfish brat. I do do whatever I want, but it's because working, coming home, taking care of my kids, running them a million different places, running in the mornings with my son, making dinner, doing laundry, etc. is what I WANT. So that's what I do. I occasionally go to a spin class at my gym. I get my hair and nails done. I shop with my teenage daughter. I don't go ANYWHERE socially, except when I go to my hometown to visit my Mom in which case I will go to dinner with my childhood best friend and often her family comes along. I have no other friends and on holidays and stuff we hang out with his family. Doing whatever I want is so outrageous that I truly cannot even say anything. What do you do with that? My jaw opens and then I just close it.
So, I just don't know what DB techniques to do. GAL isn't such a great idea unless I GAL inside this house. Like learn to knit or something, but I have no time for hobbies to be completely honest. My free time is spent working out or hanging with my kids. And that's really how I want to keep it. I can learn to knit when they are in college, LOL. Can anyone help me on this?? What can I do that I'm not already doing???

On another note, I'm recovering well from a surgery I had on March 23, an exploratory surgery to find out why I've been having abdominal pain for the last 3 years but yet ultrasounds, CT scan and colonoscopy all came back normal. They found endometriosis and I'm probably going to have some followup stuff done but I do not know to what extent. It was very hard to go through surgery "alone" with no husband, but my MIL took me and I'm very close to her so I'm lucky to at least have that support.

Thanks all

[artista]

H is the master of mind games and I really don't think any 180 I do is any match for him...

and he is not a place where he wants to work on himself... why would you want to live with someone like this?--a master of mind games... that sounds excruciating... do your children see him do this to you? does he do this to the kids?

Can anyone help me on this?? What can I do that I'm not already doing???

you already know what you're not doing, and you are not willing to do it... GAL... it's a big part of DBing for a reason...

mis dos centavos...

--artista

[HelenaJ]

why would you want to live with someone like this?

Well, bc he's my husband. We've been together 26 years and we have four beautiful children together and I would do anything for them.

do your children see him do this to you? does he do this to the kids?

My H and I don't even have time to talk about our R much less argue about it in front of the kids, so no, they don't witness this stuff.
We are good parents and try to protect them. The kids obviously know he sleeps on the couch but it's almost like they are oblivious. My 17 year old son did ask me a couple weeks ago why Daddy always sleeps on the couch but it took him 4 years to notice, lol. I told him bc Daddy likes to stay up late and read and fall asleep with the light on, etc. so he ends up just falling asleep on the couch. My 15 year old daughter has recently asked me a couple questions too so I think the older two definitely know something is up but unless they read our texts they would not know the stuff he says to me.
After the company party, he moved into the guest bedroom and he told the older kids what happened and I think he might have even told them we were separating....I obviously can't ask them exactly what he told them so I don't know. My daughter begged him to forgive me, told him that's what she wanted for her birthday. It broke his heart I'm sure and he ended up moving from the guest bedroom to the couch. EVERY now and then he'll sleep in the bedroom, why I have no idea. And he makes sure the kids ALWAYS call it Mommy and Daddy's room, not just Mommy's room.
As for does he do this to the kids...my 15 year old daughter knows that if Daddy gets mad at her, he'll ignore her. He's done that to her once or twice and so she's seen it firsthand. That's been once or twice in 15 years and she is his princess and probably could be labeled a Daddy's Girl.

you already know what you're not doing, and you are not willing to do it... GAL... it's a big part of DBing for a reason...

All I can say is that it's not the right time. Once I GAL, I need to be ready to be done with this M bc that's most likely what will happen. I don't want a life outside of this one, so I'm just not ready to go there. One 180 at a time and right now it's no R talk. We'll see where that gets me. I think GAL works well for the LBS...I am not an LBS, I am the perpetrator and I just don't think it works the same way. At least it wouldn't for me. If I was the LBS and saw my cheating partner acting as-if and going out with friends and such without me, that would not go over well.

******
I was thinking more about what I need to do that I'm not already doing. While H was out of the country a couple weeks back, he told me a couple key things-one is that if we were to divorce and he were to remarry, he would look for someone just like me. He also told me I'm a fantastic mother. I think the changes I'd need to make are how I relate to him in public and specifically when other men are around. He doesn't think he can trust me with his heart. But our R has declined to the point where I may never have the opportunity to make those changes. He wants me to be "into him". He needs that. But it's probably too late for that now....not sure how we can EVER get back to a place where that is even possible.
In addition, I have lost so much respect for him because of this. Ok, I hurt him. I didn't mean it, I have apologized endlessly and been the whipping post for a long time. I will gladly change my behavior, no problem. OM was 14 years ago. We've already moved past it. We had two more children. For him to destroy our M and our family over something that was an accident because his pride is soooo hurt that he's convincing himself of things that are just NOT true....for him to do this is sickening to me. He's abandoned me as his wife and is risking breaking our happy family. For what?? What do you tell someone about why you did that? Because I kissed another guy 14 years ago and then lost track of time and talked to a male coworker for too long at a company party? In 26 years, these are the only issues? And because of that you throw away something that you've admitted is otherwise nearly perfect?? It's disgusting that someone's ego can be that big.