I don't recall being ticked at you. Then again it was a rough week. I might have said in my "manifesto" that "this is who I am and that's not changing" or something like that. IDK. Anyway, sorry if I barked too much. I'll go back when I get a sec and read through the thread and see if there is something I can clarify. Otherwise, please accept my apology.
No.......please do not go back and rehash all of that stuff again. You do too much rehashing, as it is. I'm concerned people will begin to skim over your posts b/c of too backtracking. ((hugs)). I don't need it, and neither do you. Just leave it be.
I feel better after hearing how Jessica guided the sessions. Supporting you about BFF and all the other issues, let your W see that it's not coming from a paranoid H.
Since the two of had sex and your W enjoyed how you were assertive.......I really hope this broke the ice about waiting on one another to make the first move in the bedroom.
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Also, obviously the rest of the "Acting married" part, including "girls weekends" and the after-work "wine downs". (I'm not going to budge on that one, though I expect push back since her work GF, the Christian one, also attends these sometimes and seems to think they are okay-- she is the one that herself was the victim of infidelity so she should know the risks, smh.
Just b/c the younger friend attends the wine downs sometimes .......cannot be indicative of your W's or Doc' behavior & motives. It's not so much of what actually takes place during those wine downs, but it makes your W and the Doc more familiar and comfortable with each other.....and what that can lead to......texting, etc. They were already, according to your W, discussing family & marriage. It's not a big leap from there into more personal matters. My concern is that you have a tendency to make exceptions or excuses. Which leads me to another concern I have.
I hope you won't look at who has the most leverage. In the past, I could almost see it defeating you when you would take that mental approach. In fact, I often felt you tried to compromise your feelings/thoughts b/c you felt helpless about your W's behavior.
The bottom line is that you (and the counselor) have laid out these stipulations that your W will choose to meet or ignore. Neither of you can retreat to old habits. That includes you trying to explain away some things you feel in your gut could turn into problems. IMHO, you have all the leverage.......as long as she knows you will not buy into her b.s., and as long you know you will not hesitate to leave if she's not doing what you need in building a healthy relationship. Giving too much credit toward the GF attending the wine downs.....is an example of what I'm saying. If you don't like it, then tell her! Why should you sit back and eat sh't sandwiches and try to convince yourself it's all probably innocent? Why should you be subjected into playing those silly games on the phone while she's in the wine downs? To me, it's as if the spouses are the target of some inside joke. If the GF is there carring on a phone conversation with one of the spouses...........it just makes them appear more guilty, IMHO. Maybe it's just me, but I would feel a bit degraded and highly suspicious for a co-worker to call me and try assure me.......or keep me busy.......while my spouse was in a wine down. Anyway, I've pretty much told you all of that, previously.
This is the time to get it all out on the table. If your counselor thinks you are going too far, I'm sure she will tell you.
I think your W will be the model example for a while. Currently, she appears to be willing. I don't know for how long. Look for any signs of back peddling. If she starts feeling you aren't going anywhere......she'll start getting careless again...........unless, she makes great headway in IC, which I am praying that she does. I think she needs the accountability in IC every week, even if it can't be face to face......just making that contact with Jessica, without you, may help a lot.
There is one more thing I want to say about her interactions with OM. I find it hard to understand why he would have been so persistent in chasing your W........considering you had confronted him........if he didn't believe he was getting signals from her. All she had to do was tell him she regretted her behavior, that she loves her H and will not cheat again. But, she didn't. She may have played some kind of cat & mouse game, but he was getting incentive somewhere. Why wouldn't a man give up if he thought it was hopeless?
I wished she would have contacted OM while she was in front of Jessica (if she just couldn't do it in front of you). The whole thing about not wanting the contact made over electronic devices........b/c of what he may do toward her son and all that stuff......I don't know why Jessica bought into it. Maybe she didn't. If your W didn't have the gumption to tell OM, previously, why would she not need a little support when contacting him this time around? IDK, but some of the things she said, just sounded flimsy.
In all fairness to her, I was hesitate and way too soft when I told my OM. My mentor let me know I was leaving the back door open for the OM. I deleted everything, never looked back to see if he had tried to use my old email account. I was a little nervous, b/c by then I read about several scary situations involving affair partners. I was nervous for a time that he would show up at my workplace and try to embarrass me..... although he did not live in my local area, he knew where I worked. He did call me at work. I felt flustered at first, but that time around, I let him know without any doubt that there would be nothing else between us. I never heard from him again......thank God!
Anyway, she needs a plan in how to respond if he does call her at work.....or should he just show up at her office. She cannot make the mistake in thinking she can remain to be on friendly terms, or any of that "friend" stuff. If she's afraid of what he might tell her sons.......then why not just tell them that OM has caused some trouble and not to go anywhere around him or listen to anything he has to say. Whatever..... I would refer to your counselor's advice about it.
She also needs support in how to go about telling BFF. If she says something like, "My H wants me to stop hanging around you", then you know how that will turn. So again, I hope Jessica will supply your W with a model letter or some type of example of how to break ties with BFF.
I think when she comes down from this emotional state, it's going to hit her with exhaustion........and maybe you, as well. The old saying of Rome wasn't built in a day, comes to mind. We seem to be our weakest when we are exhausted emotionally.
I will be anxious to hear what Jessica does tonight.
((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Dude, take her up on this. Get her out of there. That job was an enabler for her continued contact with him. It is a temptation she can't afford. And it is a temptation that you can afford to have removed. Plus it will call her bluff. Likely she offered to quit thinking you'd say not to.
If I may, I'd like to respond to Steve. Considering you are still very new here and are learning about WW's, I don't want you to think I am doing anything other than trying to help you understand an important point. It seems to be the nature of a LBS to see the OM/OW as the problem or threat to the MR. It's not that simple.
The problem existed before the OM or the doctor ever came on the scene. The problem is in the woman (in this case). If you'll read some of the history of this thread, you'll discover Jim's W has felt rebellious even before they M.........and has admitted she had issues wanting to commit to a relationship with one man. Jim has described her flirty behavior with men, and her "poor" boundary setting.....and apparently her lack of determining what is inappropriate behavior. This started before they M and has continued over the years.
Now, I said all of that to ask you a question. Where is the problem? If you are still looking at the job site or the city, look again. Don't they have hospitals in other locations? Aren't there other men, other jobs, other opportunities to be tempted in other locations? Is the answer to grab her and run for the hills every time she acts inappropriately or decides to cheat again?
I'm not against going to a new place, if that's what they both decide they want.........and they feel it would refresh them and give them a sense of newness. It may actually distract them for a short while. However, it is putting a lot of expectations in another place. I'm saying, moving to a new location won't fix her. Until she stops rebelling against the M......and against behaving like a M woman (or as she described, being a good girl), she will always have those temptations to be act like the "bad girl". . There is no getting around temptations, b/c the city is not the problem. The problem lies in her own mindset.
The way Jim described that little place about 3 hours away, sounds pretty much like my location. You know, where everyone knows you and are willing to help, etc? Well, guess what? We have a high rate of affairs and divorce, just like they do anywhere else. Only here, it's likely to be with someone you've known for years. Which is not so different from Jim's W having an A with his one of his best friends. See what I mean?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Dude, take her up on this. Get her out of there. That job was an enabler for her continued contact with him. It is a temptation she can't afford. And it is a temptation that you can afford to have removed. Plus it will call her bluff. Likely she offered to quit thinking you'd say not to.
If I may, I'd like to respond to Steve. Considering you are still very new here and are learning about WW's, I don't want you to think I am doing anything other than trying to help you understand an important point. It seems to be the nature of a LBS to see the OM/OW as the problem or threat to the MR. It's not that simple.
The problem existed before the OM or the doctor ever came on the scene. The problem is in the woman (in this case). If you'll read some of the history of this thread, you'll discover Jim's W has felt rebellious even before they M.........and has admitted she had issues wanting to commit to a relationship with one man. Jim has described her flirty behavior with men, and her "poor" boundary setting.....and apparently her lack of determining what is inappropriate behavior. This started before they M and has continued over the years.
Now, I said all of that to ask you a question. Where is the problem? If you are still looking at the job site or the city, look again. Don't they have hospitals in other locations? Aren't there other men, other jobs, other opportunities to be tempted in other locations? Is the answer to grab her and run for the hills every time she acts inappropriately or decides to cheat again?
I'm not against going to a new place, if that's what they both decide they want.........and they feel it would refresh them and give them a sense of newness. It may actually distract them for a short while. However, it is putting a lot of expectations in another place. I'm saying, moving to a new location won't fix her. Until she stops rebelling against the M......and against behaving like a M woman (or as she described, being a good girl), she will always have those temptations to be act like the "bad girl". . There is no getting around temptations, b/c the city is not the problem. The problem lies in her own mindset.
The way Jim described that little place about 3 hours away, sounds pretty much like my location. You know, where everyone knows you and are willing to help, etc? Well, guess what? We have a high rate of affairs and divorce, just like they do anywhere else. Only here, it's likely to be with someone you've known for years. Which is not so different from Jim's W having an A with his one of his best friends. See what I mean?
Fair enough. And I actually agree. However, if she is over the rebellion as HoosJim is hoping, a change in job to get her away from temptation would AND should be more important than the financial considerations involved. I guess Jim making the decision based on money just seemed a little short-sighted to me.
But the point is well taken. She is the problem. OM can and will come and go.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Cautiously optimistic tonight. We had a good session with Jessica our MC/IC. Mostly talked about boundaries and expectations... mostly mine... and, in the end, W was accepting of these. But there were some hard moments. Session ended up going well over an hour and a half-- but she stuck with us, even out of town for a family illness. Like i said, she's truly a blessing.
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I feel better after hearing how Jessica guided the sessions. Supporting you about BFF and all the other issues, let your W see that it's not coming from a paranoid H.
Yes, this was definitely a HUGE help. Not only in terms of having another, authoritative party there taking the position that "Your H has a right to ask for some things... He didn't have to come back, and he doesn't have to stay... you need to be prepared to make sacrifices if you want to save your MR", but also in terms of helping soften my sometimes rough rhetoric. A couple of times, things i said W kind of wrinkled her nose a bit and Jessica would say something like "So what you're saying is" or "let me see if i can understand your feeling on this" and W would be immediately nodding her head like "Okay, i get it now." By a similar token, after the session, when we were upstairs lying in bed holding each other (and no, we didn't "do it", you lechers ) when W was going to bed (she has work early tomorrow so i lay up there with her a while before coming down to work out), she said to me "I wish i could remember what Jessica said about talking to bff (breaking the news about the cutting contact), because it really made sense and was said in a way that i think bff will have a hard time objecting to." I couldn't remember exactly either, so i suggested she text Jessica, which she did.
Another point that Jessica was clear on, which i think was helpful for getting my W in the right frame of mind was that "You two had not begun to do productive work on this thing until just this week. Everything that came before was largely meaningless. You had to get to this point before you could move forward. What comes next is up to you and how committed you are to doing the work."
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Just b/c the younger friend attends the wine downs sometimes .......cannot be indicative of your W's or Doc' behavior & motives. It's not so much of what actually takes place during those wine downs, but it makes your W and the Doc more familiar and comfortable with each other.....and what that can lead to......texting, etc. They were already, according to your W, discussing family & marriage. It's not a big leap from there into more personal matters. My concern is that you have a tendency to make exceptions or excuses. Which leads me to another concern I have.
Much, if not all of this, was addressed by my conditions/boundaries/expectations. I basically described it as three "Big picture" things i needed: Complete accountability, complete commitment, complete transparency. At any rate, no one-on-ones and no two-on-ones even, with any member of the opposite sex, were the non-negotiable stipulations there, as was some sort of "Safety" on any non-work related texting (either copying spouses, or sharing text threads, or just plain not doing it which, IMHO, is pretty smart for any couple.) "Acting married" was also a general item, which included wearing our rings which, i should note, she is already doing, which should also hopefully give that doctor at least a little pause in case he was getting any ideas.
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I hope you won't look at who has the most leverage. In the past, I could almost see it defeating you when you would take that mental approach. In fact, I often felt you tried to compromise your feelings/thoughts b/c you felt helpless about your W's behavior.
The bottom line is that you (and the counselor) have laid out these stipulations that your W will choose to meet or ignore. Neither of you can retreat to old habits. That includes you trying to explain away some things you feel in your gut could turn into problems. IMHO, you have all the leverage.......as long as she knows you will not buy into her b.s., and as long you know you will not hesitate to leave if she's not doing what you need in building a healthy relationship.
^^^^This. Yes. Absolutely. I think tonight i got my "last week" mojo back tonight. Think by the end of the session she was once again painfully aware of how close i was and still am to not being here, and that she's walking a thin line right now. A couple of times things came up that kinda sorta threatened to derail the discussion or disarm my attempts and i stomped them out. One time, my counselor, who is great, but still human, for some reason brought the idea into the convo of, if my W was coming completely clean about her A activities, that i should at some point come completely clean about how i monitored W. (Counselor is very big on "all truth, all the time, no secrets ever). W then made some noise about "feeling safe", and "privacy", etc. and maybe i should "come clean" and i was like "Whoah whoah whoah... I have absolutely nothing to prove here. I was DONE a week ago... and the only reason i am back is because i believed and chose to trust that belief that you were ready to work on us, to do whatever it took, including being fully accountable for the affair and what happened. And to rebuild the trust that having that affair destroyed. If you're not, that's you're decision, but i have nothing to prove." Boom. "You're right, I'm sorry". she said.
She also was resistant to cutting off the bff relationship, as predicted. I knew this would be the hardest for her, but i stood firm on it. In the end I made clear to her it was non-negotiable. MC was, as i said, helpful in this regard. There was no way i would do this with her nurturing such an unsafe relationship. By the time it was over, she was actually eager to get it over with.
And whoever said women are always testing, y'all are dead on. Need to be ready to meet that test. I think
In the end, she was willing, even eager to do the work afterward... planning when to work in the book and thinking of how to tell bff.
She also spilled pretty much everything about the A, with no demand or expectation from me for reciprocating on the monitoring revelations. It was hard, for both of us. But what she told me jibed with what i already knew and hadn't told her on some aspects, and what i had suspected on others (She did see him at the beach, last july, and knew ahead of time he would be there) as well as some things i didn't know. Like i ssaid, it was hard, but it cleared the decks, and she told me even though she feared she would lose me (she even started crying afterward and said "so now you really are going to leave for good, arent you", or something like that. I didn't, and i told her i wouldn't, that she never need fear telling me the truth. She hugged me and sobbed some more.
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I think your W will be the model example for a while. Currently, she appears to be willing. I don't know for how long. Look for any signs of back peddling. If she starts feeling you aren't going anywhere......she'll start getting careless again...........unless, she makes great headway in IC, which I am praying that she does. I think she needs the accountability in IC every week, even if it can't be face to face......just making that contact with Jessica, without you, may help a lot.
Yes. Jessica made it clear she is there for W as a backstop if she needs to talk or ever feels "an itch" to do anything ill-advised. "Call me first" she said. She does want to start MC fairly soon, prolly after a couple more weeks of just IC, it turns out, and then work in regular IC situationally as she sees necessary, likely breaking us out of joint sessions when things come up or if either of us requests it. She says her philosophy is that, as much as possible, we should be able to discuss our personal problems in front of each other, even as she knows the importance of IC in cases as complicated as ours.
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There is one more thing I want to say about her interactions with OM. I find it hard to understand why he would have been so persistent in chasing your W........considering you had confronted him........if he didn't believe he was getting signals from her. All she had to do was tell him she regretted her behavior, that she loves her H and will not cheat again. But, she didn't. She may have played some kind of cat & mouse game, but he was getting incentive somewhere. Why wouldn't a man give up if he thought it was hopeless?
We already know the cutoff from her in late July was not definitive enough. It did not contain any of those elements "I regret my behavior... I love my H", it was more like "I need to figure things out with me and hoosjim"... almost like a "Wait and see." She admitted that earlier. Further, during this phase, she granted that when he called she did not make any strong efforts to "put him off" and that some of the way she talked to him could have been seen by him as encouraging. Also, dude is just a scumbag. Remember that he targeted her EARLY on social media, perhaps even befriended me to get at her, and was persistent as hell. Bad, bad, bad dude. My wife was certainly a willing participant, but, given her less than strident good bye and her continued answering of his calls, it is not surprising he kept calling.
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I wished she would have contacted OM while she was in front of Jessica (if she just couldn't do it in front of you). The whole thing about not wanting the contact made over electronic devices........b/c of what he may do toward her son and all that stuff......I don't know why Jessica bought into it. Maybe she didn't. If your W didn't have the gumption to tell OM, previously, why would she not need a little support when contacting him this time around? IDK, but some of the things she said, just sounded flimsy.
The "no record" thing makes sense to me. Dude contacted our son previously after our confrontation, i think as a "see what i can still do" kind of thing. I don't find it all incredible to think he might do something like that, or at least threaten. AAR, W did not contact him by herself, i was there and said so. And that if he called her again we'd get a restraining order, and after that have him arrested. It was hard on my W, but she kept it together pretty well. Her part was to say "It was wrong, i love my husband, this is over, stay away." Jessica had us script it and discuss it in advance.
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Anyway, she needs a plan in how to respond if he does call her at work.....or should he just show up at her office. She cannot make the mistake in thinking she can remain to be on friendly terms, or any of that "friend" stuff. If she's afraid of what he might tell her sons.......then why not just tell them that OM has caused some trouble and not to go anywhere around him or listen to anything he has to say. Whatever..... I would refer to your counselor's advice about it.
She also needs support in how to go about telling BFF. If she says something like, "My H wants me to stop hanging around you", then you know how that will turn. So again, I hope Jessica will supply your W with a model letter or some type of example of how to break ties with BFF.
"Check" on both of these. On telling bff, see above. On handling future OM overtures, she and Jessica had an entire IC session on this.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Good session, indeed--hoosjim... You are doing it! Your C is a gem... Good for you on how you handled the privacy issue... I had a similar reaction to your wife's... Our pastor called me out on it...
Jessica seems to be hitting on all the most critical spots, in a short period of time. I sure hope you & W stick with her as often and as long as Jesica suggests. It appears you have a real gem.
I feel so much better after reading about yesterday's session. As I often say, the most important thing needed from the WW at this point, is her willingness.
BTW, you get a A+ on your response regarding how you have nothing to prove. You gave an excellent answer. I want to remind you to be extra cautious about protecting your communication with the board. I'm not very comp lit, so it concerns me of any possibility of her finding your history here. I don't think she would handle it very well ATM.
So Jim.........are you feeling more hopeful after the session last night?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Kind of early for it, in either event, but what do you think about the idea i discussed above of "take backs" for painful dates and places. On one hand it seems like a good idea in the context my friend is doing it. OTOH, i am wondering if trying that might prove risky or dangerous for a husband and recovering WW.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Jim was thinking about your sitch earlier. And I want to take back (no pun intended!) what I said earlier about the timing. Your timing is much longer than the "just over a week" I characterized it. You guys have been piecing for a long time, and the recent problems you guys had does appear to be more of a slip up on her part as opposed to a full blown walk backward into waywardness.
I think that is important for people to remember. She didn't necessarily become full blown wayward again, maybe she did. The recent activity is too early to tell, but you guys have had a longtime of trying to heal and reconnect. And maybe that is where some of your frustration at other posters came from, in them forgetting where you were prior to BD2.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Jim was thinking about your sitch earlier. And I want to take back (no pun intended!) what I said earlier about the timing. Your timing is much longer than the "just over a week" I characterized it. You guys have been piecing for a long time, and the recent problems you guys had does appear to be more of a slip up on her part as opposed to a full blown walk backward into waywardness.
I think that is important for people to remember. She didn't necessarily become full blown wayward again, maybe she did. The recent activity is too early to tell, but you guys have had a longtime of trying to heal and reconnect. And maybe that is where some of your frustration at other posters came from, in them forgetting where you were prior to BD2.
i disagree with Steve85... as you know... i don't believe she ever stopped being Wayward before the big BD a couple of week's ago... her attitude, demeanor never changed... whether she was in contact with OM or not, she was not into saving the marriage... i think the Counselor was correct when she said that anything they worked on before last week was meaningless... she said that they had not done productive work until last week... and you know what? they couldn't because wife had not HONESTLY committed to the marriage... it was all a facade...
but now--they are their way to saving their marriage... they have a solid marriage counselor... i really like this MC... and a really big thing: hoosjim set his boundaries in place with buy-in from his wife...
but i do agree that if you look at the entire picture, hoosjim has been "in it" longer than the last two weeks...
i know i must have been a thorn in hoosjim's side when i came on the scene because i was not relenting in my belief that his wife was still being wayward, and i thought he was being too easy on her, making excuses for her questionable attitude... i identified with her so much, and this sitch, as well as CW's, is the reason i decided to become more than a lurker...
and i still stand by: WORDS MATTER... those that are "particularly" spoken, and those that are "purposely" not spoken...
