That REALLY escalated fast. (Hoosjim's 14th)

[hoosjim]

Ginger:

AHHHHHH! Yes you can! She has been behaving well for 5 minutes so you can't establish boundaries?! She has NOT been behaving well for quite sometime, she lied, cheated, then lied again. A few days of behaving and you have no right to place boundaries?

Artista:

you are doomed to fail your marriage if you do not stop this nonsense! of course you have leverage... she cheated on you... you have not worked out the points of reconciliation... you can still and you MUST lay out your terms... it is NOT TOO LATE!

Ladies, No, not what I said. I said "What she is doing RIGHT NOW does not give me any leverage. Of COURSE I have leverage based on what she had been doing previously. I damaged that leverage of course by having sex with her, but, yeah... I get what you are saying ^^^^^, and, more importantly, I didn't say anything contrary to it... just trying to describe what I saw as hurting the dynamic, and how. Not sure we are on different pages, here.

sandi2:

I have been pretty quite (for me), for two reasons. First, I felt that Artista could help you more at this point. And secondly, I felt you got a little pi$$ed at me and was shutting me out when you said you didn't need my blessing (or something to that affect). But I was still very interested, hopeful, and concerned.

I don't recall being ticked at you. Then again it was a rough week. I might have said in my "manifesto" that "this is who I am and that's not changing" or something like that. IDK. Anyway, sorry if I barked too much. I'll go back when I get a sec and read through the thread and see if there is something I can clarify. Otherwise, please accept my apology.

You even think moving to a new location isn't a bad idea. Speaking as one who has moved a lot in a lifetime, I can testify that memories move right along with you. Now, I get what you were saying.....and I hope you'll get what I mean, as well. Moving off is not all it's cracked up to be, and a person can feel isolated and out of place in a new location......in which case, might not be helpful to your W. Anyway, I encourage you not to do move before your youngest son is settled into college. Again, don't take this to mean I'm selling you short of knowing what's best for your family.

There's more to the "moving away" than just re-setting our MR. I have talked about leaving this place before, from time to time. And even W did in the distant past before we became somewhat shackled to our jobs. (Try leaving government employment only four years from a vested pension and lifetime health coverage-- it's a powerful disincentive). We are both small-town transplants to the big city. I grew up on a farm in SW Va and she grew up in a dying steel town in Western PA. Our respective families are all very far away-- the closest are her folks at 5-plus hours. Mine are 600+ and 1000+ away, respectively. We have siblings but they are equally far away, or more. IOW we have no family support network nearby, and we both grew up in "close" families. For me, I often feel like this place is killing my soul. The outrageous cost of living (I could sell my house and buy two large houses not three hours south of here) traffic, the pace of life, the coldness and "Achievement Culture" of the residents. I visit my friend in a small town south of here, where everyone knows each other, are friendly with one another, help each other out etc etc. No traffic. No smog. Sun goes down in in fire over the mountains every evening.

That this place is now associated with the pain of our MR difficulties and, now, the affair, is an added incentive, but not the only one. Still, you are probably correct that it shouldn't be done precipitously.

To be honest, I was much more concerned about your W's behavior toward the Doc and that whole situation.....than I was about the OM. I read your posts intently, hoping to see some mention of it. It sounded as if most of the focus was on her interaction with OM.

Considering her lack/poor boundaries of conduct with other men......I really hope you will follow Artista's advice and hold your W's feet to the fire about these type of situations that make you feel uncomfortable and triggers old memories.

Yes. See below.

Anyway, you are seeing some mistakes and are wanting to know your next move. Well actually, I think you've already said what your next move will be......and that it's happening tonight. By my clock, tonight is right now! So, I'll wait to see how it turned out for you. smile.

We each had an IC today. Half-session because, unfortunately, MC/IC is out of town due to a family emergency. She is, however, taking time to keep in touch with us because she has a special interest in our case and because we are at a crisis point or fulcrum point or whatever you want to call it. Like I said before, she is really a blessing.

We also had a "joint" session afterward, where we talked about where I "was" and MC talked to us about appropriate boundaries and what I (hoosjim) would need to feel safe and feel like I could continue and be open to a rebuilding of trust in the MR. Also that we HAD to do work on processing and getting past the affair, including full accountability by W, etc.

Specifically:

I made clear that I had conflicting emotions about "us". That I was (obviously) still attracted to my W, that we on some level had reconnected over the past couple of days and felt that draw towards each other, but... that I was still angry, and hurt, and betrayed... and did not feel still like I could trust W in the mid to long term, even as I believed that, right now, she felt like she wanted "us" and wanted to work on the MR.

That brought up the issue of boundaries, which MC and I had discussed some in my IC and, which, apparently, MC had advised W as she had in the past that, if she was serious, W would need to be willing to "sacrifice, no matter what". (FWIW, MC had also told me this earlier, that that was W's chore/burden/whatever, while mine would, eventually, be to learn to "Trust, no matter what") Particular boundaries we got to were:

1) W contacting OM to tell him to get lost, stay away, forever, or we'll have you arrested for harassment. This was uncomfortable for W... she didn't want anything in writing, electronic or otherwise because she was afraid OM would use it against her or our kids, and she knew that having me on a phoncon would be tough because I still want to kill the guy and that that would obviously be harder emotionally in a real time call. In the end, we opted for the call. Not pleasant, but done. (FWIW, W said she had previously told bff to tell him to stop calling... both of them because bff was allegedly tired of his constant calls asking about my W). W is also having phone number changed. There is no way to "hide" her at work... she could change her extension but then the office message is required to give info on how to reach her extension whatever it is due to her position. She offered to quit, even to quit and work two jobs if that would make me feel safer. We are going to talk more about that situation (work) tonight... but I'd rather she not quit as that would make things very hard on us financially... an added stressor id just as soon avoid right now. OTOH, if it's the only way to truly move forward in the MR and trust-building...

2) Transparency on devices, social media, apps, account numbers, etc. She was agreeable to this. Sharing passwords (in fact, even sharing profiles on our apps where you can do that... FB, for instance, allows you to have multiple accounts on your phone.) All apps we know OM is on, she is deleting. I'll have access to her PlayStore account so will know if she installs anything new.

3) She continues IC regularly, either weekly or bi-weekly. Jessica (IC/MC) is to be the place she can go if she starts to feel an "itch" or has other issues on an ad hoc basis, as well. Agreed. But she (W) also wants us to also be doing MC. I said I would agree to do that as long as she was doing IC.

4) We follow the MC's advice. Even if its hard, even if its uncomfortable. MC has been wanting us to do this post-affair recovery program she likes, and we (mostly W) had kept putting it off. She (W) thinks we are headed in the right direction now, but agreed to do it.

5) Acting married, bff, and wine downs. We just got started on this, and are to continue it today. (Jessica had to go and attend to some family matters and had to cut off our session which had already gone over time at that point.) Wife just nodded and cried a little and said "I know, I know..." when I relayed (again) how I felt about bff and that I did not want her (bff) having any involvement with us right now." MC made it a point to say, before we went, that this was the kind of thing she was talking about when she told W that she would need to be willing to "sacrifice, no matter what" and urged w to think overnight about what was important to her and what she was willing to do...

There are other things I am going to expect of her. In general:

"No secrets, no lies." With the exception of wanting her to be able to confide in Jessica in IC, we are not to keep or have secrets from each other, or confide in others things that we have not confided in each other.

Accountability: I want her to finish the narrative and timeline of her contacts with Scott since last August, how she felt, etc. She had started doing this at Jessica's request last week, and I want to see the finished product. I also expect her to come clean about the beach trip last summer. Debating whether I should push her for a "Full Affair" narrative, though I have told her in session and otherwise on more than one occasion that a) few things build my trust for her more than when she shares difficult things like that with me AND b) that I don't want any skeletons/shoes left in the closet that might cause her to be afraid to open up to me or that I might find out something in the future that would damage the MR or make me want to bolt... I feel like this was a big problem in our MR previously (MC agrees)-- fear of what the other's reaction would be to hearing something or finding something out and the associated hiding/secrecy/dishonesty.

Also, obviously the rest of the "Acting married" part, including "girls weekends" and the after-work "wine downs". (I'm not going to budge on that one, though I expect push back since her work GF, the Christian one, also attends these sometimes and seems to think they are okay-- she is the one that herself was the victim of infidelity so she should know the risks, smh. OTOH, maybe she figures she has the huge upper hand on her H, now because of the infidelity and figures she can do whatever she wants to, lol. Whatever. They're a problem. Maybe they'll invite me-- as her work gf actually suggested once or twice).

Lets see, anything else? Oh, yeah, talked a little about how for a few days I actually felt "free" and that it was nice... in the sense of not having to worry about "where W was" or "whether or not W was with Om or talking to OM" because I was basically "done". Now, I'm obviously "back" and there has been some reconnection, and we obviously enjoyed the sex, but there are still the underlying issues and those need to be addressed if I am to stay and keep working on this.

Incidentally, she still maintains, and did with MC as well, that she did not intend for us to end up ML, though she did get caught up in it when I responded so strongly to the situation, and that she had just wanted some fun and playfulness and flirtiness, especially since ummm, the time of the month was not the greatest for this, and then we got carried away. I was like "look, what did you expect, really? You, looking like that, with the set up you laid out?" And she was like "Yeah, but except for very early when we were dating you were never that much of the instigator. I was surprised that you came on so strong... I liked it (blushing, and lowering her eyes) but it surprised me some." I still wasn't buying it, but MC interjected and said "okay guys, the important thing is is that were no regrets or recriminations right afterwards, that both of you felt comfortable with what happened and with each other, right?" Which we both agreed with. She said the trouble arises in that situation when there are hard feelings immediately afterwards as opposed to the bonding and closeness you usually get, say when one partner feels "used or manipulated" or immediately feels anger over the previous affair for some reason. While she would have preferred that we had been able to check in with her so she could have cautioned us, or that we somehow otherwise had been more... ummm... restrained, she didn't see this as a profoundly damaging thing... AS LONG AS WE WERE COMMITTED TO CONTINUING AND DID IN FACT CONTINUE TO DO THE WORK.

I'll update more after tonight's session

[SteveLW]

.. but I'd rather she not quit as that would make things very hard on us financially... an added stressor id just as soon avoid right now.

I'm about to smack you upside the head with a 2x4.

"I want to make it work with my wife above all else!" You may not have said that but you sure have been acting it. Yet you aren't willing to remove the last direct connect OM has to your wife for the sake of......money? -groan-

Dude, take her up on this. Get her out of there. That job was an enabler for her continued contact with him. It is a temptation she can't afford. And it is a temptation that you can afford to have removed. Plus it will call her bluff. Likely she offered to quit thinking you'd say not to.

If you end up divorced, and in 10 years you look back and realize that her keeping this job is what did your marriage in, how will you feel?

[SteveLW]

Lets see, anything else? Oh, yeah, talked a little about how for a few days I actually felt "free" and that it was nice... in the sense of not having to worry about "where W was" or "whether or not W was with Om or talking to OM" because I was basically "done".

One more 2x4. No offense, but bugging her room is not the behavior of someone that was "free" or "done".

[DonH]

I could not disagree more. Quit an otherwise good job simply because OM calls there? Huh? I could see if OM worked there. And only money. Financial issues are among the top reasons for M issues. Why create a money problem where one does not currently have exist? It's all about bang for the buck. I don't see enough upside compared to the downside.

[SteveLW]

I could not disagree more. Quit an otherwise good job simply because OM calls there? Huh? I could see if OM worked there. And only money. Financial issues are among the top reasons for M issues. Why create a money problem where one does not currently have exist? It's all about bang for the buck. I don't see enough upside compared to the downside.

Don, there was also suspicion of the doctor that she works for. It would eliminate that as well.

[hoosjim]

Don, there was also suspicion of the doctor that she works for. It would eliminate that as well.

That problem is eliminated by eliminating the after work social events.

Quitting her job merely because OM calls there is just not necessary or even a marginally good idea. For the reasons Don states amongst others. Idle hands are the devil's playground.

[artista]

i am really glad you set some boundaries... and you need to follow through with what was not covered in the session... it is crucial that you not ease up on those...

i think it's weird that she would bring up how difficult it would be for you to be on the phone conversation when she tells OM to bug off... in any case, that would be your call... transparency is important, of course...

Accountability: I want her to finish the narrative and timeline of her contacts with Scott since last August, how she felt, etc. She had started doing this at Jessica's request last week, and I want to see the finished product. I also expect her to come clean about the beach trip last summer. Debating whether I should push her for a "Full Affair"

^^^this is really good... you have to know there was more to it than her reluctant office calls with OM... she had the Marco Polo app and so did he... you heard her "other" voice and sultry laugh when she was on the phone with him (or another man... but it was most likely OM)... you even said that sometimes when you would call her at work, she was too busy to take your call, but somehow you knew that she took his calls... something like that...

in any case--see????? it was not too late to state your terms... and you absolutely must follow through: girls' weekends, birthday getaway... etc...

i was so worried that you were not going to follow through with the boundaries... you gave her so much credit for doing the right things in the first couple of days...

There's more to the "moving away" than just re-setting our MR. I have talked about leaving this place before, from time to time. And even W did in the distant past before we became somewhat shackled to our jobs. (Try leaving government employment only four years from a vested pension and lifetime health coverage-- it's a powerful disincentive). We are both small-town transplants to the big city. I grew up on a farm in SW Va and she grew up in a dying steel town in Western PA. Our respective families are all very far away-- the closest are her folks at 5-plus hours. Mine are 600+ and 1000+ away, respectively. We have siblings but they are equally far away, or more. IOW we have no family support network nearby, and we both grew up in "close" families. For me, I often feel like this place is killing my soul. The outrageous cost of living (I could sell my house and buy two large houses not three hours south of here) traffic, the pace of life, the coldness and "Achievement Culture" of the residents. I visit my friend in a small town south of here, where everyone knows each other, are friendly with one another, help each other out etc etc. No traffic. No smog. Sun goes down in in fire over the mountains every evening.

you asked me why i suggested that H and our boys and i could/should just move away after he kicked me out of our home... i was desperate to change things up, to get him to take me back to put all this mess i made behind us... it would get us away from people and places that were associated with what i had done... it might show him that i only wanted to concentrate on US... on our family--the four of us...

some of the fun we used to have before my unfaithfulness was now tainted... whenever we would go to our regular fun hangouts, i had begun spending some of my time texting OM or WW BFF... it hurt H terribly... he began hating those places... i ruined everything with my WW behavior...

moving away would get us away from those places, and we could start anew...

--artista

[hoosjim]

some of the fun we used to have before my unfaithfulness was now tainted... whenever we would go to our regular fun hangouts, i had begun spending some of my time texting OM or WW BFF... it hurt H terribly... he began hating those places... i ruined everything with my WW behavior...

moving away would get us away from those places, and we could start anew...

Something that my good friend, who has, oddly enough, connected with his X-W's AP's STBXW (spouse swap, effectively) and is now, even more oddly, in what appears to be a committed relationship with the woman, was telling me about was "take backs". In other words, a conscious effort or act to "take back" a particular place or particular date that has become tainted by the pain of a previous affair. Say, for example, January 23rd, the date of initial BD for me, is a very painful day... Perhaps W and I would make it a point to have a fun date or romantic getaway or do something else memorable on that date to "Take it back" and remove it as s painful reminder. Same with a place where a rendezvous may have occurred-- go there yourself a few times and have a good time... overwrite the painful memory. My friend and his current beau obviously share some of the same painful dates/places since their respective spouses were the ones doing the cheating together, but I think the concept is an interesting one in any instance where there has been such infidelity and the associated painful memories. Not sure what my MC would think of the idea but I intend to ask. Only thing I can think of is that, unlike with my friend, here one of the people participating in the "Take back" would also be the one who had been unfaithful and created the painful memory to begin with, so that might, and perhaps even probably would, change the dynamic.

Either way, I thought it was an interesting idea. My friend says it has been working for him.

I think it's weird that she would bring up how difficult it would be for you to be on the phone conversation when she tells OM to bug off... in any case, that would be your call... transparency is important, of course...

I was the one who actually mentioned it as a potential drawback to a phone call... wasn't sure I'd be able to keep my temper in that scenario and thought she should know but that if that's how she wanted to do it I was game. Then she started talking and thinking about it more and was more worried about the "written evidence" angle and giving the OM ammo to hurt us/her/the kids, to which my response was that together we could handle anything he could do. But she opted for the call.

[SteveLW]

Don, there was also suspicion of the doctor that she works for. It would eliminate that as well.

That problem is eliminated by eliminating the after work social events.

Quitting her job merely because OM calls there is just not necessary or even a marginally good idea. For the reasons Don states amongst others. Idle hands are the devil's playground.

Not nearly as not even being a marginally good idea for money. I am sure there are other jobs she could find to keep her hands from being idle. Heck, she was gainfully employed and still found a way to be contact with OM, being idle can't be any worse!

[SteveLW]

P.S. I have seen people do a lot of things for the sake of money only to regret it later.