I am sure you are frustrated reading about it but I am 10 times as frustrating living it... But beating me up for 13 paragraphs worth is not doing me any good.
Which is why I am looking for suggestions. How can I salvage the situation, here?
Walking out again?
I'm serious. I mean, maybe it comes to that. I'll look like kind of a dick because she's not doing anything wrong right now... I mean, really, she's like the completely devoted, not giving me any s**t, doing everything right, changing everything, perfect W... but maybe that's needed? It is what I am pretty sure the MC intended, for us to be apart for a bit longer and for her to sort of broker the boundaries and preconditions (several of which she mentioned are also ones Sandi2 and Artista have said are necessary) for us to get back together.
if you must, get your C to help you relay your boundaries/requirements for reconciliation if you are not strong enough to do it on your own... NOW!!!
this has nothing to do with your W doing "everything right," at this point... of course she is... she sure as he77 better be doing every thing right... you have to go ALL IN on your boundaries/requirements... no negotiations... that's it... and you have to give her time to decide if she is willing... and none of this from her, "but i can't give up BFF--she is my only friend." "but i have to go on my bday weekend--my friends have already paid for it..." and none of this from you, "i can't take BFF away from her--she's been doing everything right."
secondly--STOP GIVING YOUR WIFE CREDIT FOR REACTING the way she has... you absolutely cannot trust that she is doing everything right for YOU... she is doing things for herself... she is not changed... this is her opportunity to change... but it has not happened BECAUSE SHE HAS NOT DONE THE WORK YET!!!!!!!!!!!!! get that in your intelligent mind... THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE... now do the work... take off those rose-colored glasses... those glasses have lead you to see your wife doing everything right... being a good wife... seriously? how???? in a few days she is now a good wife? hoosjim!!! stop it!
and sex right now is not the way to keep you connected... it's the way to muddle things... you just made it more difficult by allowing this... on a side note, i have to agree with DonH... i knew when you sent that message about staying away for the weekend what you were going to do... like i said--human nature... nothing new under the son... it's called human nature for a reason...
anyway, you are already letting her call the shots... what she was attracted to--you jumping into that Uber--that is already diminishing... and you have yet to tell her what you expect should reconciliation take place... she is where she wants to be, and you are where she wants you to be... if this were a competition, she is winning...
okay--no chickening out of relaying your conditions for reconciliation... get to it at your next MC if you cannot do it on your own... which is okay... in fact, at this point, because things are now muddled, it's probably best to have MC lead that discussion... and do not back down, cave in, etc...
And I meant the "perfect wife" thing not as in I believe she is... but because her behavior (her current behavior, at least) does not give me any leverage over her in terms of boundaries or "requirements." IOW, I can't say right now "W, you are really screwing this up, I need you to ______________". It has to at this point relate back to what came before... which we should have discussed Sunday. Which I intended to discuss Sunday. Did I mention that I still had my backpack and duffle bag in the car when I left to take S18 to his friend's house, and that I parked the car and pulled out my journal to gather my thoughts about having that "boundaries" discussion before going home? Then I come through the door and "Whammo!". Blindsided.
At least I took the "lead" in what followed... which she noticed. That had not been my typical MO previously... at least for a very very very long time... and also something I know now she had always wanted more of.
But, yeah. I was completely unprepared for it. And completely unable to resist the temptation. And had made no allowance for navigating those waters and getting to where we really needed to be... discussing the terms of my return.
Artista, please share more....
When you returned to your husband after he had kicked you out for three days, what did you feel? Did you honestly feel at the time that you wanted to be with him? How did he respond? Did he fall at your feet, take you back with open arms, with no preconditions, no discussion, no recriminations? If you were sincere, or thought you were, what eventually changed, and when? Did your husband fall back into old patterns? Did an opportunity arise and you just felt that old "spark" or whatever, again? Or did you just start growing to resent him and your sitch again and, so rebelled? Did you fall back in with a previous flame, or seek out someone new, or were you the recipient of attention from elsewhere which you returned? And what were some of the things you did when you ultimately "fell" again? Were they things your husband perhaps should have seen or noticed sooner?
Thanks again for all your insight.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
And I meant the "perfect wife" thing not as in I believe she is... but because her behavior (her current behavior, at least) does not give me any leverage over her in terms of boundaries or "requirements." IOW, I can't say right now "W, you are really screwing this up, I need you to ______________".
AHHHHHH! Yes you can! She has been behaving well for 5 minutes so you can't establish boundaries?! She has NOT been behaving well for quite sometime, she lied, cheated, then lied again. A few days of behaving and you have no right to place boundaries?
It's a culmination. It's the big picture. Not just what is transpiring in the moment.
You do have absolutely every right to say what you need boundary wise given everything that has transpired.
I think you are reverting back to being scared of what will really happen if you do lay those boundaries down. You will think she won't comply, therefore you will have to follow through. Therefore you are talking yourself into thinking it would be unreasonable to place them because of her brief stint of good behavior.
You do have "leverage" over her. She broke your trust multiple times. You are entitled to these boundaries if you are willing to follow through with them.
She's playing this so well. "Jim won't make me give anything up because I'm being such a good girl"..... and it is working.
And I meant the "perfect wife" thing not as in I believe she is... but because her behavior (her current behavior, at least) does not give me any leverage over her in terms of boundaries or "requirements." IOW, I can't say right now "W, you are really screwing this up, I need you to ______________".
you are doomed to fail your marriage if you do not stop this nonsense! of course you have leverage... she cheated on you... you have not worked out the points of reconciliation... you can still and you MUST lay out your terms... it is NOT TOO LATE! and you should have the C open this up... too dang bad if she is offended on your taking a step back and going over this now... you have to do this, hoosjim... you asked me what you could do to not go through what my H and i did--and that was another false start...
if you have that mentality, that you cannot now hold her feet to the fire because she seduced you and is now behaving, then you cannot be helped... you are weak... and that will be your doom... i just do not get you and other LBSs... you give us Wayward waaaaayyyy too much leeway... that will not save your marriage...
this is how far i got to reading this last post... i will read the rest after i send this comment...
have the Counselor say that you guys got ahead of yourselves... that you guys now need to take a step back and discuss the points of reconciliation... that you are hurt, and she needs to do the work to build up your trust in her... and these are the things that will help you, hoosjim, feel comfortable:
BFF Girls Weekends Wine hours and other such things wedding rings and what ever else you may have...
are you brave enough to do this? you should be... you said you were done... is she willing to give these up for the marriage? she should be... she was dying inside...
When you returned to your husband after he had kicked you out for three days, what did you feel? Did you honestly feel at the time that you wanted to be with him? How did he respond? Did he fall at your feet, take you back with open arms, with no preconditions, no discussion, no recriminations? If you were sincere, or thought you were, what eventually changed, and when? Did your husband fall back into old patterns? Did an opportunity arise and you just felt that old "spark" or whatever, again? Or did you just start growing to resent him and your sitch again and, so rebelled? Did you fall back in with a previous flame, or seek out someone new, or were you the recipient of attention from elsewhere which you returned? And what were some of the things you did when you ultimately "fell" again? Were they things your husband perhaps should have seen or noticed sooner?
Thanks again for all your insight.
while i was still at the hospital, the psych evaluator told me H was picking me up and that i was going home... i could not believe it!!! H and my boys came to pick me up... we stopped at my hotel so i could gather my things... we went home... H said i could stay in the MR... he took the guest room which was actually just as nice as the MR but had the better bed... and it was closer to his office... i did not say anything to him... i could not look him in the face... i was broken... ashamed... in the morning, my sons brought me coffee... H had always done that...
that very morning, i took off and went downtown, which was quiet... i took my burner phone, broke it into pieces and threw away the pieces into different waste baskets... i went back home... i did not get all pretty or anything... i had no desire... i wanted to go to the supermarket so i could cook something, and so i asked my youngest to go with me... he asked his daddy, and so we went... i took my son with me so H would not wonder if i went to meet OM or went to call OM... i had taken some meat out of the freezer to defrost to make chicken tacos, and H was in the kitchen and saw... he said, "i am grilling a tritip tonight... you are welcome to eat with us..." and i said, "thank you." later, i went to see our pastor's wife and spoke with her... her H about 20 years before--before he was a pastor--cheated on her... so i got to hear her side... my H's side...
later, i sat to eat dinner with H and sons... i don't remember what their conversation was... i sat and ate quietly... after they cleared the table, and put the dishes in the dishwasher, i was still sitting at the table... the boys had gone... H came behind me and i thought he was going to yell at me... he put his hands on my shoulders and said near my ear, sometimes i hate you, and sometimes like right now, i see you so sad and so hurt, and i want to take you and hold you... sometimes i just want to grab you and take you to our bed and ML to you... i turned around and hugged him and cried and cried and cried... and then we went to our room and ML...
we met with our pastor the following day... he warned us that we were moving too fast... that we needed to set boundaries... i remember one of them being that until H felt more comfortable, if i were going out to run errands, i would take one of the boys with me... another was i would not go to my hometown where my parents and most of my family live (about 40 minutes away) alone... i guess there were others... i abided by them at first... but it wasn't long before i disregarded them, and he never held me to them...
i would say that i picked up a new secret phone before my plan expired... so--a few weeks? not long... and i was scared as heck when i did... but i still did it...
he should have required more of me... better, stronger, more thought-out boundaries... he should have held me to them... he gave in too soon... that very morning, he did not bring me my coffee, but he made it for me... i knew my sons didn't make the coffee... and i was the only coffee drinker... we used to say that it was his daily Valentine to me...
we have been reconciling for three years, and just about two months ago, he started making the coffee again...
i am telling you, hoosjim... you have to tell her you have requirements... must-haves... and she does not get to pick and choose... and they cannot be "her way." the way you see it, how you have expressed it here, you will be right back where you were the day before you confronted her... living in UNSURENESS... aren't you sick of that life? don't waste all this DRAMA only to not make any progress... you would be a fool to waste this opportunity...
It's just sex. Lots of couples who are married do it. Plenty of couples until they finally D and sometimes beyond.
Your WW wants you to see this as ML.
Other than using protection even V carried on having sex with her WH. And damn good sex too. The G thought that gave him the upper hand (so to speak) but one final OW made me feel the risk to my health was too great. Plus he was drinking heavily.
I wouldn't beat yourself up.
It's just sex, if you want to then my thinking is go ahead.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I have been pretty quite (for me), for two reasons. First, I felt that Artista could help you more at this point. And secondly, I felt you got a little pi$$ed at me and was shutting me out when you said you didn't need my blessing (or something to that affect). But I was still very interested, hopeful, and concerned.
I think you may be a little sensitive to some of the posts right now. First, it was directed toward Another Stander, then me, then Don H. I'm not criticizing you for it. If you can't be sensitive now.......pray tell, when? Even if we say things you don't want to hear......or it causes you anger or frustration.....just remember we are on your side. We are not attacking your W nor trying to show disrespect. ((hugs))
I can only say Amen to what others have previously said in response to your recent updates. But like you've questioned.......what do you do next. I will be very interested to see what the MC says, or if she'll want to wait and discuss it in IC with you.
I hope you won't see us as not giving you enough credit. You are the one emotionally involved, and everyone here knows it can mess with decision-making abilities. As you've pointed out several times, you believe your W is genuine in what she feels and says. You even think moving to a new location isn't a bad idea. Speaking as one who has moved a lot in a lifetime, I can testify that memories move right along with you. Now, I get what you were saying.....and I hope you'll get what I mean, as well. Moving off is not all it's cracked up to be, and a person can feel isolated and out of place in a new location......in which case, might not be helpful to your W. Anyway, I encourage you not to do move before your youngest son is settled into college. Again, don't take this to mean I'm selling you short of knowing what's best for your family.
To be honest, I was much more concerned about your W's behavior toward the Doc and that whole situation.....than I was about the OM. I read your posts intently, hoping to see some mention of it. It sounded as if most of the focus was on her interaction with OM.
Considering her lack/poor boundaries of conduct with other men......I really hope you will follow Artista's advice and hold your W's feet to the fire about these type of situations that make you feel uncomfortable and triggers old memories. It's not even a matter of trust, IMHO, but a matter of what is inappropriate conduct for a M woman. No matter where you live, if this one issue about a code of conduct is not resolved.....it will continue to bring problems into the MR.
Anyway, you are seeing some mistakes and are wanting to know your next move. Well actually, I think you've already said what your next move will be......and that it's happening tonight. By my clock, tonight is right now! So, I'll wait to see how it turned out for you. .
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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