That REALLY escalated fast. (Hoosjim's 14th)

[AnotherStander]

Oh boy. Well first let me say you really have a gift for writing, that was quite the cliffhanger

Second I'll just reiterate what everyone else (and especially Artista) is saying, this does not feel like "change you can believe in". It reminds me of this girlfriend I had before I was married, I was young and treated her like crap and she would get fed up and break up with me, then I would go into "damage control" mode and promise her anything and everything, acknowledge all my mistakes and such, be humble, and then as soon as we would get back together I would go right back to the same behavior because I didn't mean any of it, it was all just acting and a means to an end (to get her back and put everything back to "normal").

What you're describing all sounds just overly dramatic, controlling and manipulative, and not at all genuine. But hey, I hope I'm wrong. Just keep those eyes wide open. Good luck!

[hoosjim]

did your radar go up when she said that? it's so weird that i said the same thing...

Yes, my radar did go up when she said if for that reason.

However... let me ask you something. and this is kind of a separate question from "where she is" and "can I trust her", more of a practical question: Why did you say that and why do you think she said it. More importantly for where I am getting to: Is there any reason we shouldn't we think about moving away and starting over? Because I have had the same thought and have been having it for a while, since last summer actually. Just too much around this town serving as reminders of our crappy relationship and then the pain, etc. of the affair and everything else. Fresh start in new location just doesn't, to me, in a vacuum, sound like a bad idea. Actually sounds like a good one. But, yes, absolutely, my radar went way on for that on, and it is why I also asked "why" you said it when you did. A way of avoiding the consequences of your actions?

The rest of it, yes, I need to try to put the genie back in the bottle, if I can. I still have that pain and that hurt, there, and the underlying uneasiness and mistrust towards her. Hell, it's only been ONE WEEK!!! Even if she is completely, total, and 100% "for real", that doesn't undo the pain and damage she caused me and, by extension, our relationship.

I swapped a oouple of texts with my IC... FWIW, she had not intended for us to get so intimate so quickly, she was thinking more like us seeing each other, setting some further boundaries, and then me not coming back to the house until possibly next week at the earliest, and then only gradually, like an hour or two at a time as we did the MC work. She did say that it is not abnormal to be able to and to actually feel both sets of emotions at the same time... the reconnecting and excitement, and also the pain and hurt and distrust and disconnect, that it is important to feel both and to be true to both, whatever that means. My interpretation at least in terms of me is that it's absolutely okay to still be hurt, have trust issues, and, in fact, is appropriate and necessary for me to have those feelings and to demand appropriate boundaries to protect myself as a result... which, as you have noted, we have not done. I had intended to bring this up yesterday but got back late from the gym and she was asleep, so I did not wake her.

I agree that all of the boundaries/preconditions you mention are appropriate (pretty sure Sandi2 posted a similar "laundry list" not far back, as well) and I will insist on them. I thought all during my workout yesterday how that is necessary... and I am confident that I can demand them and stick to that demand. Today and tomorrow with MC will be a very good opportunity to do that, and a natural "break" where we can step back and look at things.

FWIW, I absolutely do believe her right now, and the changes in her right now. She just seems "all in". What I worry about is that, especially as mercurial as she has been in the short term, that she will once again flip/flop in the future or else slip back into old patterns. The "rebelliousness" seems gone for now, but she never really did anything in counseling to address that component as a more fundamental manner... and that's something that has DEEP roots with her, that I can't see being driven out just over the course of one traumatic week.

Thanks, artista.

[neffer]

We all have hope for your M Jim. One step at a time. Good luck.

[DonH]

Thanks for caring, and for being here. Ima go "radio silence" until Easter morning. From pretty much everyone except my one close friend and the Almighty. I have a lot of thinking, and praying, to do.

And to clarify, I just had an IC session right now, not a joint MC session. So don't worry, I didn't go crawling back...

I thought this was a good place to start my comments. This was posted on Friday afternoon going into this pivotal weekend. So to begin with I find it rather interesting how you in some ways did the same behavior as your wife. Now you don't owe us all here anything, don't answer to us, etc. But many here have been very devoted to you - especially Sandi and artista. Going to just work on yourself, huh? A lot of thinking and praying to do, you say. Don't worry, you didn't go crawling back.

That was your comments while the truth of the matter was you knew darn well what you were about to do and knew just as well nearly everyone here would try to talk you out of it. Tell me I'm wrong. And if you are going to try to claim that things just changed last minute - why not reach out for some advice before meeting with W? Again, I think you knew what you'd be told and didn't want to hear it or follow the advice.

It had been one week - 7 measly days. Now I have zero doubt it felt like a month or more to you - likely several months to your W. But we all know around here, talk about and witness how things take many months - often years - to work out. A one week semi-separation is NOTHING. What I believe you have done is traded the best chance of long term success for short term comfort. You wanted to feel better, to end your hurting, wanted to end your W's hurting and in exchange gave up on or at least certainly damaged and diminished your chances at long term success.

I have actually been more on your side of thinking than many others here but even I would have strongly suggested against returning home and going all in. And make no mistake, that's what it looks and feels like to your W deep down. I don't know that it can be undone or as you state the genie can be put back in the bottle. So pretty much, your C and everyone here wishes you would not have done what you have done. Yet you did it. Why? That is really the question here - WHY?

I think it's the dance you and your W have always done. It's the dynamic that you have. It's not healthy. Clearly your W has so much to fix within herself, but then, I'm starting to see, so do you.

I don't for one minute believe her story of how after she saw OM in passing for two minutes she had this transformation and wanted to call you, jump you and make everything better all right away. Bull SHlT - I just don't buy it. She may have moved one or two notches on the 20 notch scale but no way in heck did she move that far. What moved her there was your reaction. It was YOUR moves to say you are done and are leaving that flipped the switch for her. And now she's trying to spin it as after seeing OM. Her comments are likely true but they happened after you dropped the bomb on her - not after she saw OM.

Amazing how artista and to some degree Sandi called all of this. I was fearful of it but didn't think you'd cave so easily. I do think your W feels all in for this moment in time. That will change. I'm certain of it. It may have already started to change and you just don't know it yet. It was your actions that were driving hers and it still is. Only now it's your latest actions that are driving hers.

Jim, she is just as broken as she was. There is something damaged in her that is making her act these ways. Until that gets fixed you are going to have these same things going on. It appears that has been the case since you met her. Hearing how she chose the wrong guys, broke it off with you multiple times then came back. Does that sound familiar? Choose Rodney Dangerfield for a time now is back with you. What comes next - you know what comes next.

It almost sounds like the two of you are already back in couples MC? Is that what is happening this week? Again, only days ago you were saying she needed IC for a long time before the two of you could work.

And you'd consider moving away for a fresh start????????????? Huh? It's not the location of your house or hometown that will give you a fresh start. You will just move your problems to whatever new community you decide to run away to. This is teenager talk! Hitting the "reset" button - or starting over or lets run away. That's not the talk of healthy, mature adults. It's not what MC professionals advocate. It's band aide, feel-good talk.

Run away. That seems to be the theme going on - sadly now with both of you. Rather than face the hard work, it's easier to ease the pain for today at the expense of doing the real heavy lifting and fixing things.

I know this has been a stiff 2X4 but I really think you need it. I have been worried about your W, her manipulative actions, her half truths. Now I'm starting to worry about you. That started last Friday telling us all one thing while doing another.

Lord I so hope you prove us all wrong. I just don't see it. Not right now anyhow. I'm sure everyone will continue to stand by you and try to help - myself included. Now it's me that wants to hit the reset button - return us all to Friday morning so we could alter your course for this past weekend. That's obviously not possible but it's all I got at the moment. Really hoping Sandi and artista can pull a rabbit out of the hat here.

[LH19]

HJ,

Please reread Don's post many times! Two things ring true that I say all the time that I learned from Tony Robbin's podcasts:

1. Rejection breeds obsession.

2. People will do more to avoid pain then they will to seek pleasure.

[hoosjim]

That was your comments while the truth of the matter was you knew darn well what you were about to do and knew just as well nearly everyone here would try to talk you out of it.

I don't know how to convince you, but, no, actually I did not know what I was going to do. My counselor had suggested a brief get together on Saturday, and to see if I felt comfortable enough to attend church with the family on Sunday. A lot of old feelings got stirred up seeing W on Saturday, but even then I wasn't sure... I became exasperated/angry with her on two or three occasions late in the encounter, as I believe I mentioned, enough so that I still wasn't sure I could/should show up at Church the next day. What really pushed me over the edge, there, was the message from the pastor at the church I went to Saturday night. I am a man of strong faith, and the coincidences between what my buddy and I had been discussing theologically just prior to the service, the way the pastor's words just seemed to speak to me and my sitch so directly, were what convinced me I needed to go... and to be open to whatever happened.

Now, I have to admit that I got sucked in, carried away, whatever you want to call it, on Sunday, and that it would not have been at all inconsistent with what I thought God was telling me for me to have kept a greater distance Sunday during the day and then again ESPECIALLY Sunday night... and know my MC would agree. While she herself had advocated for some sort of trial contact, with Easter being a likely spot for it, she was pretty adamant about "establishing boundaries" to govern those contacts. She had actually asked us to text her over the weekend to keep her updated so she could help during that very touchy period, but, very unfortunately, she had a family emergency and was herself out of contact until yesterday. So we were on our own.

And I was completely unprepared to handle what W did on Sunday with the flirty/seduction bit. It never even crossed my mind that she would go there and it caught me completely off guard. We did talk later about it, how it didn't change the underlying pain and hurt and the problems we were facing. W's take on it was that "this (the physical intimacy) can help us... it gives us something to keep us connected even while we are going through the hard stuff elsewhere in our MR... I think we should be open to it. Jessica seemed to think reaching out 'in the moment' would be a good thing". I told her I didn't think that this was quite what Jessica had in mind.

Anyhoo, we both have IC tomorrow. And we are going to talk tonight... and I am going to discuss what should have been discussed two nights ago... specifics about what I need to "stay" and to do this. Yes, I am physically attracted to her and yes, I enjoy the physical contact and intimacy, but I still have very, very deep trust and hurt issues that that can't wash away. We can ML every night and it is not going to change the mistrust for her without knowing that she has changed and is doing the work she needs to do... and it is way to early to know that.

[SteveLW]

Jim, I think the timeline is probably the most problematic. If this had happened 7 weeks from now (8 weeks since BD2), then I think the reaction here would be a tad different. But really, Easter was barely over a week since last contact between your W and OM. There are folks here still struggling weeks and months after their S's last contact with the OP.

We all just don't want to see you get hurt here. SO please understand these reactions are coming from a place of caring.

[hoosjim]

Also, Don, and don't get me wrong this is good stuff but...

I KNOW I FRIKKING SCREWED UP HERE!

I am sure you are frustrated reading about it but I am 10 times as frustrating living it... But beating me up for 13 paragraphs worth is not doing me any good.

Which is why I am looking for suggestions. How can I salvage the situation, here?

Walking out again?

I'm serious. I mean, maybe it comes to that. I'll look like kind of a dick because she's not doing anything wrong right now... I mean, really, she's like the completely devoted, not giving me any s**t, doing everything right, changing everything, perfect W... but maybe that's needed? It is what I am pretty sure the MC intended, for us to be apart for a bit longer and for her to sort of broker the boundaries and preconditions (several of which she mentioned are also ones Sandi2 and Artista have said are necessary) for us to get back together.

IDK, had I been at all prepared for the seduction play-- which may have been completely innocent, at least in her mind, I really do think that right now, in this moment, she "wants" me and us-- I think I could have resisted/deflected.... but I wasn't and I didn't.

So here we are.

Please help if you can. I don't need beating up. Done enough of that on my own.

[hoosjim]

Jim, I think the timeline is probably the most problematic. If this had happened 7 weeks from now (8 weeks since BD2), then I think the reaction here would be a tad different. But really, Easter was barely over a week since last contact between your W and OM. There are folks here still struggling weeks and months after their S's last contact with the OP.

We all just don't want to see you get hurt here. SO please understand these reactions are coming from a place of caring.

Agreed.

[Ginger1]

I knew she was going to seduce you. Maybe I should have opened my mouth. I dunno.

How to salvage it? Well, you can't go backwards. For a few days she is acting like the perfect wife.... surely you realize she didn't change into the perfect wife overnight....

The best you can do is keep your eyes wide open and your guard up. It seems as if W wants to make this all go away with seduction and sex. She is using it as a tool to get what she wants right now, I am sorry.

I would make those boundaires very firm and not flimsy. Really think about what you need. Not how she might react to what you need or what her "excuse" might be for not giving it. Really set forth those boundaries that you need going forward.

You need to be ready for anything, really.