That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[hoosjim]

...Which brings me to this:

I am not over-focused on my W or on her actions or on what she is doing... or on any of that... in general. On here, however, in these forums, it is pretty much all you are going to hear me talk about... because it is pretty much the only area of my life where things aren't awesome. (The kids could use some work, but even there I am coming around to the mindset that they are great kids...scratch that... great young men... just the best...W and I were actually blessed with the ability to do a pretty good job in that regard and their quirks and struggles and warts are just blips when looking at them in that light.)

Nor am I, at least AFAIAC, over-hopeful or blinded by hope or whatever you want to call it. I told you why I am here. I make no secret of it. It is not to find my own way forward... I've found that already... it is to find clues to help me evaluate the chances that my MR is salvageable, and to give me insights that will help me navigate those waters if and when the time comes.

And, right now, I think I am getting a pretty good handle on that. Not only be being blessed with good intel, and good friends, and a great MC/IC, but also by being blessed with the wealth of insight and support and suggestions offered by you kind folks on these forums. I don't agree with everyone's take on here... who could? But I am Johnny on the spot, here. I have a close-up, birds eye view, and as unemotional view of the sitch as I ever have had and ever possibly could have. Detached? In the sense of being able to see myself happy no matter the outcome, marriage or divorce? Absolutely! In the sense of not caring whether or not I reconcile with my W? Absolutely not! nor will it ever be! Of course I care. EVERYONE who comes here cares about that, in one way or another, and is lying if they say they don't, IMO. But I am serene about my prospects in either event.

Some on here, I think, have emotions too strongly the other way. I have a friend, a very good friend from college who is in my "close circle", who was the victim of a very nasty divorce brought about by a very egregious affair committed by his first W-- the affair actually started before they were even married, during the engagement. She took him to the cleaners, too. He is a great guy. Gregarious, fun, smart, engaging, loyal... VERY loyal. And loyalty is extremely important to him. Especially marital loyalty. So important in fact, that it overshadows his judgment and his view of every single person involved in such a situation, such that the perpetrator of any marital is irretrievably evil, never to be trusted, and deserving of nothing but hatred and ill will... never forgiveness and never reconciliation. I have seen this attitude profoundly affect two other friendships in our group, both afflicted by some degree infidelity. In the one, his voiced anger and vitriol led to the shattering of at least two good friendships, and the straining of two or three others, and also was likely impactful on the failure to reconcile in the one MR. I sense this kind of anger, and intransigence, in some of the posters here. And I get it. Betrayal of this sort can breed strong emotions. I am generally a peaceable Christian dude these days, but I have said in recent days and I meant it that I have never felt closer to being able to take a human life than I did walking out of my broken home Saturday night. I do appreciate the warnings, and I absolutely agree that spouses guilty of infidelity, wayward or not, should have to prove themselves as being something else. But, sometimes, people change. Or they change back to what they were before they "fell." It is in all of us to do this. It is the human condition. I can forgive and accept that and move past that-- not sure all folks can. I know my friend couldn't.

So a few days ago you caught her meeting OM. Caught her red-handed, thus proving she has been LYING to you throughout this so-called recon. She's a lying cheater. She lies to you and everyone else.

AS-- I appreciate your warnings, and they are so noted. You and the others will be glad to know that I am not yet nor do I know if I will ever, even at this point, "let her back in". My intel, sources, and counselors have enlightened me today to a degree that I believe there is hope for her. Just hope. For now that is all, but it is something, and I am not staking my life or my sanity or my well-being or my future happiness on it. Tonight I am going out to drink gin, listen to music, laugh with friends and flirt (as harmlessly as I can) with the cute twenty-something bartenders at the local pub. But be warned: If I do begin the reconciliation process with my W... if she does prove to me that she is trustworthy and if I do "let her back in", I will not tolerate name calling or abuse or disrespect of her from any quarter on these forums or elsewhere. Are we clear?

She probably told that BS story to 10 different people on the periphery hoping at least one of them would "secretly" leak it back to you, thus making it appear more genuine. I think she's controlling and manipulating you to the max right now. And hey, I totally get your desire to believe it's genuine, but from the outside looking in I've got to say that nothing about it sounds genuine to me.

From your seat, that's prolly not a completely unreasonable conclusion. Though, even from the cheap seats, I think its a bit of a stretch. There's about a dozen reasons I could rattle off that that's likely not the case, but I'll leave it at the close up view... and not just the close up view but the objective informed view... argues against that. Fairly strongly. And yet, you'll be glad to hear, I still am not convinced enough to let her in. And, even if I was, I would be waiting, and making her wait. It's still just too damned soon.

Coconut:

Jim, the other part of this is YOU, you need time, YOU need space to reset. A healthy M doesn't start with one person, you both not only need to be pointed in the right direction, you both need to level out first.

Absolutely. As I said, still way too soon. And the IC/MC agrees. We both have work to do. Me moreso on some of the anger and such related to this... particularly my desire to dismember OM and bury him on the south 40... but both of us. But please read and understand my previous post, about me, and where I am. I may not be as "good" as you think I need to be but, trust me, man... I'm still plenty good.

Ginger:

Objectively, genuinity cannot come right away the second one gets caught. That's going to take time. She just realized she can't have it all her way right now. She was busted.

Yup, got this. Don't think it is inconsistent with my current stance, other than syntactically. (I did use the word "genuine" after all.)

Artista:

this is pretty much what i meant yesterday when i said hoosjim's "vision" needs to be recalibrated... that way he can see what we see, and not just go by what he is so used to, which is vision impaired by rose-colored glasses...

i am reluctant to believe her reaching out to the Christian friend is genuine... going on my instinct, i think she is still doing her best to pull out all the stops... and i think her short-term goal is to get hoosjim to spend Easter with her and the boys...

Artista, thanks. I have seen and talked to folks first hand, here. Folks I trust. And learned other things as well. I can hardly process all that I have heard and learned today, and it will take a while. Which while, thankfully, I have! And, I appreciate the caution and, trust me, I am taking it to heart. Amongst other things, I trust this mutual friend... who herself has seen her marriage come back from infidelity (her being the faithful one). I don't know how I can convey that other than to say I know. My W is not "shotgunning" information out there... she wouldn't want a lot of people to know. The fact that she asked this particular girl is encouraging. The types of things she told me W was asking, in between fits of crying, were "What did he (meaning gf's husband) do? Who did he see? Where did he go to get help... What did you(meaning gf) need to see from him to trust him again and how were you ever able to trust him again-- I don't think HJ will ever be able to trust me and I don't know why he should" (and remember, here, that w CANT talk to me because I have repeatedly said "don't talk to me" and MC has said "give him space" and I am hiding both physically and electronically at the moment.

She(W), also appears to trust the MC now. According to the counselor, she has asked her simply... "what do I need to do."

rexgm:

I truly believe she hasnt hit rock bottom, because she knows you are still wanting to work on the relationship deep down. she is trying to manipulate you and the situation.

Nope. She thinks I'm done. Convinced of it. MC has said it, her friend has said it. She's pretty much given up on getting me back.

And whether or not that's "hitting Rock bottom" in the sense sandi2 means it I have no idea... but I don't think it matters. As Sandi2 has said they don't need to actually hit rock bottom... though they do need to "Feel the loss." My IC/MC actually gets this VERY well. She told me today "I have been waiting for her to get to this point. Before now, she never believed truly that she was going to lose you. Now she does. Don't abuse that power, but don't go back to her too quickly, either. Take your time. You need to feel safe and you need to know she's genuine. I can help you with that and help you with setting appropriate boundaries."

joejoe: (It always reminds me of football when you post, my son's HS team QB was "joejoe". Kid had CRAZY legs.)

Let the glasses fall off, you are in a fog as well. You are also like me, because you don't want to lose out to this OM, I think you feel defeated and cant figure out why your W choose him over you (she won't have a answer that Will ever satisfy you). You are fixer like me. Stop trying to fix your Sitch and let the process work itself out. You have to be really patient and give yourself time, not your WW, but yourself. Jim can't fix this by himself, but he can dictate the direction of the train. Stop getting on her train, wait until she get on yours.

Nope. No fog. Seeing clear as day. Or at least as clearly as I can under the circumstances. Right now I have more data, more intel, more input than... Idunno, maybe anyone in this sitch. I am certain. I also have a deep and abiding faith in my Lord. Not necessarily that my MR will be restored (although it will if that is HIS will), but that things will be okay for me either way, and that I am proceeding as best as my broken human perspective allows on the path He intends for me.) Patience? Check. Got that. The IC has me on a leash. We're good for now.

Ginger:

If she fights for you even though she truly thinks you moved on and lost you and you were gone (much like artistas H was) then you know it is genuine. Not just guilt or losing her cushy life. If she still wants this marriage to work even though you are DONE, then it might just be genuine.

And this is really the crux of it. And this is what we don't yet know. She has said some things to others that give me reason for hope. She has backed off hounding me the past two days. She is, by all accounts, a despairing, emotional wreck. She truly thinks I am gone. The question, now, is how hard she will work to get me back, and that remains to be seen. She has asked some of the right questions, said some of the right things (Asked MC if she thought she should quit her job since I was clearly uncomfortable with some of the dynamic there-- and she LOVES, absolutely loves her job.)

Look y'all... I am not head over heels here. I am not bought in. I'm not sure if, even if EVERYTHING I have relayed above turns out to be true... AND MORE... that I could still do this. She has been fickle in the past. Unfaithful in the past. There are still a lot of questions. I don't know what reconciliation with her would look like right now. Im not even sure I know what talking with her would look like right now... But MC has asked me to think about it, and I am. Not as a precursor to MC right now... we are in IC for a while, yet, she says. But she thinks all hope is not lost... and I don't see any harm in acknowledging that.

The above, and my previous, is my "litigative stance", my "procedural posture" as we lawyers like to say. My mind is made up, and I am resolute, at least on that general framework, though not on specifics or indeed, at this point, even on direction

And to not get me wrong... I love you all, I appreciate all your contributions. The "hardliners" are not too "hard"... they are where they need to be for who they are, and the "softliners" (is that even a word?) are not too soft (and im looking at you, too, here, Sandi-- you have done great for me and been invaluable straight along, and I will continue to say that even if my wife breaks into my hotel tonight and fills me full of shotgun holes. Okay, maybe I wont say it, but i'll think it from the great beyond...) The wealth and variance of opinions and views on here has helped me more than I can described, and I have been blessed to learn so many good lessons and from so many different quarters. This balance, this... flexibility... and my faith, are what's going to get me "There". Wherever "there" ends up being.

Thanks again y'all.