New LBW, H maybe in MLC and now with OW - part 2

[KitCat]

I disagree with Artista - I don't think he is gas-lighting at all.

From what Meg describes he is simply very angry because he feels unappreciated... by everyone. Is he right??? Does it matter??? I don't think he was blowing things up to make them feel like they were losing their marbles or it was all their fault but simply showing them his feelings on the matter.

But now I get to clean up the mess he made with the kids. Just as I have done for years, after various interactions with them.

Meg is this your 'more of the same' behavior that you need to stop. Stop fixing his mess with the kids. Validate YOUR kids and show them the steps they should take BUT stop doing it for them. They are all old enough ---- "Dear D13 I totally understand your confusion, hurt and anger at the words your father said to you. When you feel like you have gathered your thoughts I would suggest that you call your father and ask to meet to speak, speak on the phone or it that's to difficult to write a short letter to him".

You've been the middle man so long your H doesn't know what to do or how to do.

Look, I know your frustration in that. When my ex moved several states away I made his attorney put in our modified visitation order that he would facetime every week with our son. It's been 2yr now and he has never once facetimed him. In fact his dad goes months and months without even so much as a text message to his son. Yes - he is the adult and he should be the bigger person... YES - teenager are by nature selfish and feel it shouldn't be their job. However, when big things happen I just remind S16 to text and let his father know or to call his dad. Should it be the 16yr olds job? Of course not, but I'm teaching my son how to interact with his dad. The two of them need to figure out how to have a realationship. I will encourage and give tools to help with success but the more I call my ex and complain how he isn't following his own visitation order is just going to make my ex dig in his heels and not do it.

Meg the other thing you mentioned that H said was that you all have each other and he is all alone... that is 2 fold.

1) He realizes he doesn't have individual/tight relationships with his kids like you do. Of course that is his own doing as well yours. Stop picking things up and smoothing things over. Let him fall flat on his face AND don't coddle the kids over it.

2) He is starting to realize that his choice to be outside the home is a clear separation from you and the kids. He is reacting in anger but he is really confused and questioning everything.

GAL made my H angry... really angry... enough that I questioned was I doing the right thing??? He was just confused. He thought he had figured out what he wanted and now he didn't know... so he was angry that he was second guessing himself.

Now, I do agree that you deserve some boundries. I might suggest you stop having family dinners at the house. He wants to eat with the kids he can do so at his apartment or take them to dinner. If he invites you its your choice to go or not. I think you do need to cut him off a bit from this double life of being free to come and go from the M home as he tells you. I think you will up his respect for you by having some clear boundaries.

Have you read "Love is tough?"

[meg24]

Knowing my H for almost 30 years now, I don't believe his behavior last night had anything to do with feeling appreciated. He was definitely gaslighting, to justify his own actions.

As far as the cleaning up his mess as "more of the same", yes, you nailed it, that is exactly what it is. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm not really "cleaning up" this time. I have been talking to all the kids a lot latey about their own relationships with him, and hoe they need to talk to him, tell him how they feel.

H is a master manipulator. His actions these days are bringing to light actions and behaviors in the past that I overlooked.

It is definitely a long road ahead. I want my H to be happy and healthy. Unfortunately, I can definitely attest to the information I was given that the sitch would get worse after detaching. I feel that is where we are at. H feels me detachiny, he sees me acting "as if", and the kids as well. And because we are not focused on him not being the center of our universe, it is adding to his anger.

I will add that he has not mentioned one word about me possibly knowing about OW from the fiance. So maybe the fiance didn't tell OW that I know. Doesn't matter. Doesn't change things at all.

[artista]

I think your H knows that the fiance told you... And I think his behavior the other night is more about that situation... Like you said, he is justifying his cheating on you, on his family... And no amount of validation from you or your kids will be received by him in his current state of mind...

On a side note, how long has it been since he has suggested sex?

[Vanilla]

I absolutely agree with artists.

And why look at things from the view of a wayward? It's enabling bad behaviour!

Accepting that a wayward is wayward is crucial. Living with a blindfold is living in delusion. And Meg that isn't what you are doing.

WH is deep in an A and has scrambled eggs for brains. He doesn't need appreciating or his behaviour justifying to him.

He needs a kick up the arse and dowsing in cold water. Which is exactly what these teens (bless their cotton socks) are doing by saying no father's day because he isn't a dad in all ways.

My thoughts

V

[Vanilla]

Sorry fat finger slip up hadn't finished my rant....

For the absence of doubt Meg, I think you have this nailed.

Truth darts and detatchment.

Next time he tries that stupid idiotic rubbish of family conference to explain his feelings and justify his idiotic wayward behaviour THEN if it were me then tell him to grow up and when he is prepared to be in the family with no OW then there will be in. After which go off and have a family thing without him. He is not fooling anyone in your family.

It's not my place really but I would like to hit him with a kipper. And poor unmentionable things over his entitled noggin.

V

[meg24]

I think your H knows that the fiance told you... And I think his behavior the other night is more about that situation... Like you said, he is justifying his cheating on you, on his family... And no amount of validation from you or your kids will be received by him in his current state of mind...

On a side note, how long has it been since he has suggested sex?

Well, the last time sex came up (it happened) was when H came for dinner the Tuesday before my surgery, and he spent the night. 2 days later, I received the confirmation of OW from her fiancé. The day of my surgery when H brought me home, he said we would come up again Monday or Tuesday to spend the night (translation, sex). But he never brought it up again. Earlier this week H asked what day he could come up for dinner (I told him Friday). Yesterday afternoon (Friday) he said he wouldn't be able to spend the night because he had to get up early for some event. I said fine.

So you may be right, he may know that I know. But it's unusual for him not be to blunt and mention it. At this point, the kids are moving forward as if he is never coming back. I have told them they do need to reach out to him, regardless of last night.

[Vanilla]

Honey, please go get tested for STDS if you have had unprotected sex with a wayward.

The G was horrified when I did get tested and although I didn't make a big thing of it, I told him I was horrified he had put my health at risk by his scum bag behaviour. I also told the judge in court I had to get tested.

I know if you need to then you should as these risks are real. Damage to health is REAL.

I went and was relieved to know I was ok, but it could have been different.

V

[meg24]

Honey, please go get tested for STDS if you have had unprotected sex with a wayward.

That is a 2x4, thank you. I actually have a physical already scheduled later this week, I will request testing.

I have been over in the MLC forum, reading posts by DNJ, his sitch sounds so much like mine, with variations. Some things I have made note of....

Kids are usually the one topic that they can depend on, to push your buttons and make you react, rather than act.

When they see you changing, and not reacting to their button pushing, they will search for new buttons to push. The more out of sorts, conflicted, and angry YOU are, then the reasons to leave are amplified even more so.

I think this might be kind of why H turned on the kids the other night, because I wasn't reacting, probably about knowing about his A.

H also seemed happy sometimes in the beginning
but that didn't surprise me as he was free to ride his motorcycle and hang out with his new girl-- while I was cooking, cleaning and helping with homework

Ain't that the truth. Describes my H exactly, all the way down to the motorcycle. Now he is just angry whenever he is around us, doesn't even try to smile.

One very insightful question that was asked of me here quite some time ago was "if roles were reversed and you had been the one to leave and have an affair - would your W be here trying to save the marriage?".

Give that one some thought. In my case the answer was a fairly definitive no.

An important piece of a healthy marriage is - I've been told and now believe - is reciprocity. For many of us LBS we've been carrying the load in the relationship enabling the selfishness of our spouses.

Hit the nail on the head with my H. We separated years ago (H initiated separation, similar reasons to now) when s17 was about 5 months old, then R, and in the beginning of R H and an H. I kind of buried my head in the sand and kept going (this was right after September 11 attacks, and I was freaked out because H was in Canada on a job when the attacks happened and I wanted him home, hence the A happening). Anyway, fast forward 3 years, to being pregnant with d13. We were having problems again, he self-centered, self-indulgent really showing. I told H I wanted a separation. H told me if we separated, it was done, he would immediately file for D, now working on things.

So I feel there is no reciprocity with him. If he had issues with me, I had to fix them. But if I had issues with him, that was the end of it.

Also, 11 years ago I had a very brief online EA with a man I knew in high school. H discovered it, wanted to send me to live with my mom (without kids) in Utah (we had just moved to California the year before) and keep everything. We worked through that one pretty well though. Took about a year, but we worked through, has never been an issue again. I am so ashamed of that EA. Prior to that, and since, I never ever confided in opposite-sex person, or became even remotely close to any, as I don't believe that's appropriate.

So, I understand your confusion with your W wanting to be friends. In fact, I STILL struggle with this! I think what it comes down to is what feels right for you. In my case, staying friendly has kept the waters calm for S, which is my main goal. If S wasn't in the picture, everything would be different for me. I did over time get tired of being so friendly and kind to someone who did such terrible things to me, so I have pulled back quite a bit. And I do constantly remind myself that H really isn't a good friend, everything revolves around him. Very self centered.

This is my H, he keeps saying he wants his best friend back (but not his wife). I have a hard time being friendly with how he's treated me, the kids. And how do I be friends with the person who ripped my family to shreds?

I agree that especially in your case that OM is irrelevant. From what you've narrated in your story he was convenient, not causational. In a lot of the stories I've read both here and elsewhere including my own there is a common theme in the leaving spouse either running "from" something or "to" something. We have few truly abusing / neglectful spouses on any of these forums so many of the stories are where the spouse is running "to" something. In my case it was to a man who had more money. In other cases it was from a life that they found stale and dull.

My H is running from a life of everydayness. He wants adventure and excitement. I believe H is running from a boring/predictable/life
filled with responsibilities.

[KitCat]

Well... that's filling in more of the blanks.

No doubt with a 30yr marriage there will many bumps in the road... but your H has had an A before? I found it hard to follow that part.

From your earlier post you stated that your H told you he wanted to date around... did I remember that right?

Ugh... so Meg how are you holding up? What are your plans for GAL this upcoming week? What are Meg's plans for taking care of Meg?

[meg24]

Kitkat, yes H had PA about 16 years ago. We separated shortly after s17 was born (he at first said he wasn't getting enough physical attention, then later said he didn't know doctors say no sex after birth until 6-week postpartum visit - really? Baby #3 and he didn't know this?).

We worked through it, but the more I reflect on everything, the more I realize I have never fully trusted him since then. Hence, 3 years later when I was pregnant again, we started having issues because of that lack of trust, and asked for a separation, told him I maybe needed him to move out. This is where the lack of reciprocity comes in. When he had A while seprated, he expected me to wait in the wings until he needed ne (I was young, 3 littles to care, didn't know bettter). When I asked for separation, he said if he left hat was it, no going back, his way or highway (my interpretation).

Yes, he told me on Valentines Day this year he was going to see other people, to see if there was someone out there who would treat him the way he wanted to be treated, and maybe we would R later, maybe not, he didn't know.

At this point I have absolutely no expections of H, no expectations of R. If H decides he wants R, we will see where I am at that point in time. If H wants D, he will have to do that work (I am, however, setting up meeting with L to know my rights).

Not much planned for GAL this week, just work and hanging out with my kids (they come out of their rooms a lot more to talk, hang out, noe with H out of the house). Friday I have vacation day, that night going line dancing with sisters. Next weekend time with kids for Easter. S19 said today we all need to go target practice at gun range and start teaching d13. We may fo that next weekend.