She suspects you are listening to her calls. Why would she need to tell BFF that she had not seen him since July? BFF would already know that. And her behavior during this last run btwn you two, where she says she had been liking the way things were going, was not the behavior of a committed wife... Perhaps I should say attitude instead of behavior, because in front of you, she behaved... but her attitude/mentality didn't match the behavior. There was a disconnect... I think that is why you were uncomfortable... You sensed it... Anyway, she said this to BFF, the bit about liking the way things were btwn you two because she thinks you are listening to the conversation... she is not being honest now, and she hasnt been honest during this piecing effort... I knew she wasn't being honest with you, but I stayed away from giving input because my input annoyed you... But all along I knew this day would come...
Believe zero of what she says, even if she doesn't know you are listening... Believe half of what she does, like snuggling up to you in bed... Those snuggles from her are disingenuous...
Don't forget she was communicating with OM via Marco Polo as well... I still wonder why her friend invited you to use that App...
I think it's too soon to go home, and definitely too soon to talk with her, too soon to listen to her. And too soon for meeting with MC... Let her take the spot by herself.
She has not felt the loss. The first day is scary... She is in self-preservation mode.. not marriage preservation yet. She wants to talk to make you understand why she did what she did. She has no excuse, but she thinks she does because of her WW mentality...
Don't let her back in... It's too soon...
Jim, please listen to Artista about this ^^^^^^^^^^^^.
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I don't believe this was the first time they met up since July. I think she met with him that time after work when hoosjim stopped by her office and she was wearing the jewelry OM gave her, and she had the hot clothes in her bag to change into after work. And I think she met with him when she came home late from the wine hour back in February...
I don't think it's the first time, either, and I had even forgotten about the jewelry and extra change of clothes after work.
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You cannot tell her your terms right now. She has not earned to even have you consider what your terms would be. If she doesn't work toward that, she will do it again... I did... The first couple of times I was caught, and I smoothed things over, (one time I was kicked out of the house for 3 days, then H let me back in) I did it again...
I am so glad you are here to help, Artista!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
One more thing from my personal experience... When I had been banished from the home (3 days) I first reached out to pastor to intervene... H told pastor he didn't want to talk with me, listen to me, see me... He needed space... He and our sons stayed in our house... I stayed at a hotel because I didn't want my parents to know what was going on...
The next day I told our pastor I wanted to see our sons. He arranged it with H... H said I could pick them up at certain times at the end of our driveway (large property)... I picked them up, and we went to lunch... After lunch we went and did a few things... One of the boys said something that made my heart fall to my toes... Something about divorce... After I took the boys home, I called the pastor and asked if my marriage was over... I could not believe it!!! He wants to end our marriage???!!!! Pastor said it was way too soon to know...
The following night I was all alone in my hotel room... H would not return my texts... Actually he did text a couple, and they were mean and cold... I finally texted him and threatened suicide. We knew someone whose sister recently committed suicide and I said I was going to kill myself the exact same way.
Right after that I determined to drive to the house... As soon as I drove out of the hotel parking lot, I was pulled over by the police... H called 911, told them what I said, told them where I was, told them what I was driving... OMG... I just said I was going to kill myself to get a reaction... They called the ambulance, took me to the hospital and handcuffed me to my bed so I would not hurt myself!!! I was there as a 5150!!!
I had to talk with a psychiatrist there as I was handcuffed... And a security guard stood outside my door!!! I later found out that H and my sons and pastor and his wife saw the whole thing as I was being placed in the ambulance!!!
I still wonder why her friend invited you to use that App...
Coukd it be this 20-something, religious, grounded girl knew what was going on and wanted to tip you off to it? I mean, why WOULD she invite you to an app that your W was using to communicate with OM?
Next thought: as soon as I heard your W making these comments on tape I thought it was a performance. I thought right away she must think she's being recorded somehow. It was my first thought.
Next: this needs to be like the BD for your W. We've seen over and over here how one spouce, often the husband, is oblivious to the W trying to improve their M. She tries and tries but he never gets it... Until... She drops the bomb and says she's done. It's at that point that he FINALLY gets it and is willing to truly change. Sound familiar?
I've talked on here a bit of how I am involved in addiction, especially with opioids. It's a disease that often does not respond to treatment. What we have found is those with the most to lose respond the best. Someone facing drug charges in court are much more likely to stay clean. Drop the charges and they often relapse. I really see this as the same. In fact OM is much like an addiction. As long as she thinks she is losing you she will try her hardest. Take that away and she is much more likely to relapse.
You are both getting great advice and are doing great. Thing is, this is a marathon not a sprint. This will be months not days or weeks. You really need her to do the work.
Which brings me to this last piece: your W is broken. She really is. She's trying to not be and trying to hold it together but she is broken and needs to get fixed. Like with drug addiction, the first hurdle is admitting the addiction. Your W needs to first admit she needs help. She's acting in a very broken manner. She doesn't know what she wants. Seems to want what she doesn't have. She's looking at and using everyone. She needs to hit her bottom to truly get fixed or like the drug addict, will try to dance and use little bits to try to limp along.
The worst thing yo can do is let her off the hook now. She really needs to feel the pain, hit her bottom, do the work to fix herself and THEN win you back. The game is over. She needs to now win you back!
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Which brings me to this last piece: your W is broken. She really is. She's trying to not be and trying to hold it together but she is broken and needs to get fixed. Like with drug addiction, the first hurdle is admitting the addiction. Your W needs to first admit she needs help. She's acting in a very broken manner. She doesn't know what she wants. Seems to want what she doesn't have. She's looking at and using everyone.
This is valuable insight... DonH is right... After the final confrontation, H told me something was wrong with me, and I needed to fix it without him.
Which brings me to this last piece: your W is broken. She really is. She's trying to not be and trying to hold it together but she is broken and needs to get fixed. Like with drug addiction, the first hurdle is admitting the addiction. Your W needs to first admit she needs help. She's acting in a very broken manner. She doesn't know what she wants. Seems to want what she doesn't have. She's looking at and using everyone.
This is valuable insight... DonH is right... After the final confrontation, H told me something was wrong with me, and I needed to fix it without him.
That's the only way to shift. That makes the fix permanent in my view. It's the rock bottom position, the best way is up.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Was she saying or implying this was the first time she had seen OM since July? You just happened to catch her the first time they met in person?
She outright said it. I don't remember the exact words. As to "just happening" to catch them "the first time" they reconnected, that's not exactly the dynamic. I had some Intel as well as observances of her behavior that gave me cruising tips based on past patterns and behavior. She honestly hasn't had much if any opportunity to meet with him since probably August. This gym she went to is part of a chain to which she belongs, but this one which is very close to his house, she has only gone to twice, including yesterday. She doesn't have any way to interface with him in real time when she leaves her office. But the Advent of this Marco Polo app set my alarm Bills going, especially when I saw that he was also on that app. That was just this past Friday that she went on. I strongly suspect almost to the point of certainty that is how she coordinated with meeting him there. The previous time she went, I was in the area, and I seriously doubt she would have risked a meet up at that point. Assuming she had been talking to him periodically at work recently, which I think to be the case, based on her behavior and her cues, it is my belief that that is what led to the meeting yesterday. Whether or not she met up with him at any point between then and last July is, I guess, anyone's guess. I will say this ( and this address one of artistas questions as well): well I have plenty of issues obviously with the after-work wine get-togethers, I do not believe, for a number of reasons, that they were used as cover to see the OM. A lot of factors at play that make me believe that, in particular the riskiness of it in that I interface with her colleagues fairly frequently and would quickly discover if she had said she was there and was not as well as the riskiness of being seen by said work colleagues who are frequently there after hours because of on-call responsibilities and can show up in a moment's notice without any warning, but I am pretty confident in my conclusions at least in that regard.
With regard to whether or not they knew they were being recorded, I suppose that that is possible. Apparently, according to my friend, at one point last year after I had made it clear to wife that I knew what was going on, he told me that BFF, whenever she spoke with my wife in the car, would always begin her calls with "hi hoosjim if you're listening" even at no point did I ever fess up or imply that I had put a recorder in the car. This was way back last summer and even late spring I think. My inclination, is that they both believe that I had stopped doing so, based on my statement that I would not do so again, and also based on the conversation that BFF had with my wife in September when she tried to lure her out to OM's hangout and W ended up in tears. I don't think bff would have done that thinking I was listening...not her mo at all to let people believe she is the villain, and the whole thing sounded completely unscripted. So I think they were probably past believing that I was constantly listening in. Also, the conversation yesterday, for a number of reasons, including the fact that wife was not over-the-top committed to me and that there were several equivocal things in the conversation, as well as the tone, and my wife's emotions, that made me think the conversation was genuine. Not, as I said, that that makes me feel any better given the content of what was discussed.
Went to services today at my new church, and I thought the message instructive. And talked about being aware, available, and aggressive, all in the context of meeting other people to their faith, or back to their faith, and calling on the members of the congregation to use this particular week, Holy Week, to do that for someone in your life. I got the strong feeling but that should be my wife, since she is the most obvious candidate in need of some such guidance, having fallen away from her faith a little bit although yet not completely. She and I had been supposed to attend her work friends baptism and Confirmation this coming Sunday Easter, but that obviously won't happen now. I know, opinion on here is pretty strongly favoring me not contacting her at all, but I had mold with the idea of telling her in a text in response to her about two dozen to me at this point that " I have my own appointment scheduled for tomorrow for me. What you decide to do with yourself is your own affair. There is no point trying to schedule anything for us right now because there is no us. I hope that you will spend some time trying to figure you out, either with a counselor or with clergy or through spending some time in prayer during Holy Week." And I reading it back to myself, just sounds stupid. Nonetheless, it is ascending that I would like to convey to her, but not sure how to do so without making myself appear to be on the hook. I do sincerely want her to figure out her mess, and I do sincerely want her to reconnect with her faith, or her. I know that it's not my responsibility to fix her, or, if you listen to our pastor today, maybe it kind of is, at least in the sense of helping lead people in the right direction. I don't know.
Anyway, Something that has to be immediately addressed is the living arrangements. I can obviously tell her that I don't want her to be here and that I am not inclined to abandon the marital home and bedroom since I am not the one guilty of infidelity. The question is, when do I do this. The issue will likely be forced when I return to the home. This will likely be this evening, but at any rate no later than tomorrow morning when I must go by there to pick up a suit and shirt to wear to work because I forgot to grab those when I was there last night. I can almost guarantee that she is not going to back down on that one. The last time, in July, she had initially said she would, but then her spine stiffened after she received Cheerleading from BFF.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I think your text to her regarding MC was good... In that, you do sound strong, resolved... But here with us, you sound a bit like you might waver. I know you are in a new place, and you are unsure... That's okay. Where you seem to be ready to waver is in your making allowances for W... I think you just can't help it... It's what you are used to... She is not being genuine in the conversations with BFF... And this meet up with OM was not the first one since July...
I have shared a lot... I don't want to overstay my welcome... So I will leave it there for now: she knows you might be listening to her convos and this wasn't the first meet up with OM... I hope DonH continues to contribute...
One more thing... You would think my being taken to the hospital on a 5150 after my suicide threat would have been rock bottom, but it wasn't. After three days, H let me come back, and I did it again...
If I think I have something helpful to share, I will... Stay strong and resolved, hoosjim...
If and when I go to the house which, at this point, is looking inevitable for tonight unless I figure something else out, the issue of living arrangements is bound to come up. And it should come up. I have no intention of tucking my tail and running for my own house. So that will have to be addressed, and I am still taking suggestions.
Similarly, when that comes up, the issue of what to tell the kids is starting to come up as well. My conviction, as I have stated before, is to tell them the truth. And I also intend to say that to my wife. They need to be told the truth. This is going to probably cause a major meltdown because it is her major fear and darkest nightmare. So any thoughts on how to handle an approach that would be appreciated as well.
Finally, I do not intend to engage in any marathon relation discussions with her, however, it seems to be everyone's opinion here, that would be perfectly fine, and even the good move to make sure I tell her that I think that she has a problem problems that she needs to work out on her own, and let her compulsive and repeated returns to the OM are evidence of that. Part of me also really wants to tell her that if she is serious about getting herself right that she should reexamine who her closest confidants are, perhaps without specifically naming BFF.. but I am a little weary about doing that because I fear it may have the opposite effect. I don't know. Let me know y'all thoughts.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
For Pete's sake, are you listening to what they are telling you?
Artists told her H she was going to commit suicide and he didn't talk to her about it, but your asking if you should have long conversations about the house, the kids and about her needing help.
How bout this, tell her to be out in 3 weeks or you're going to call a realtor to list it, the kids are older we don't need to talk to them together, and you are f'd up and I can't help you fix that... period.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
