WW's A ended, Now piecing(?) but slow, thread #12

[hoosjim]

Sometimes i really wonder if she and i are going to work out.

She stayed late at work again yesterday for wine and talk with her work GF and the Doctor. She told me, actually even asked me in advance: "Can i stay for a glass of wine after work"-- her exact words. I said who's going to be there? "Me and GF and Doctor". "Sure", i said. Just let me know when youre leaving to come home." This was at 5:15 PM.

At 6:25, her work GF who she's there with texts me, no copy to W. Asks me what i am doing next Friday. Now, i know she is there with W so I joke "That's a pretty bold question since you're sitting right next to my W, what does she say about that?" GF: "Well, W and I are planning something and I want to make sure you're free... Don't tell her i am telling you". Me: "Well, in that case I'm free, normally i'd be doing something with just W, but if you guys are planning something... I should keep it free?" GF: "YES!! Keep that day free!" Me: "OK, will do. Youre not getting her drunk right now so she cant drive home, are you"? GF: "Not at all. We are planning. But please dont tell her and you have to act surprised." GF Again: "Also, looks like we will all be hanging out alot next weekend, because that's my and my daughter's baptisim" (They are both joining the church next weekend). This exchange lasted from 6:35 to 6:50 PM, and, supposedly, my W did not know about it.

7:00 PM, W texts-- finishing last glass, trying to milk it Im' good ill call you when im done. Me: "Rough estimate?" Her: 7:30. Me: "Thx"

7:32-- W: "Almost done."

7:46-- W's GF: "We are leaving now, sorry!!"

8:03-- Me (to W): "Hows it going?"

8:06--W calls "We're leaving now, just have to run to bathroom...Here, talk to GF" (I chit chat with GF for 2 mins, she says,"okay, we're going right after i go to bathroom, bye"

8:23-- W texts me "In elevator"

8:28-- W calls. I hear GF saying "Goodbye, see you tomorrow" and then W getting into car. I am out having gone to the gym at this point and am on my way back. We talk for 28 mins, much of which is like this: W (a wee bit tipsy, just to the "starting to get happy/talkative point): "You're frustrated with me arent you? I can hear it in the tone of your voice. It's like everything changes when i stay after like this" I play it off like "really, i don't think my voice sounds any different" and "What reason would I have to be frustrated". Her: "Well, maybe frustrated is not the right word", and "Your irritated that i stayed after and now want to go to the gym" and "Youre going to want to have a talk, now, arent you" "Maybe we can also talk about how you're being so forward all of a sudden?" (All of this is said kind of playfully, or at least not snarky or angry like). I tell her "Im not mad at you staying after work with your friends, or staying after work to have wine with your friends. It doesn't have to be always black and white with that. Sometimes under the circumstances it might, other times not, but it is not all about 'i hate it when you stay after work to have a glass of wine with your work friends.'

At any rate, she gets home and dresses for gym. She is VERY chatty and jokey, kind of like she gets when she knows she has done something "wrong". She goes to gym for an hour and comes back, and we have a talk. I explain to her my feelings on the matter, much as Sandi2 suggested: "I don;t object to you having friends or even to you staying after work with your friends to have wine, but a couple things about it DO concern me in certain situations. We are where we are now, we got to this point of having to recover from an affair in part because you thought you could be "just friends" with a member of the opposite sex, and there weren't proper boundaries in place. You have said you let OM get too close and that even now you are not sure "where the line was crossed." I dont mind you staying, but the fewer and fewer people who are there with you when you are hanging out with Doctor the more concerned i get and the more inappropriate and dangerous i think it is. When it is just you and GF and doc, i think that that is really playing with fire." Her response here gets a little defensive, as it always does when she thinks she is being accused of wrongdoing: "We got to that point because I was DONE... i was ready to walk out, and now, here again, it is all on me, all my fault, just like it always was with everything else." (And here, in a vacuum, she is somewhat correct, this was part of the neglect pattern that i also would not trust her judgment on things or would intimate she was wrong about things-- not as much as she thought-- she is and always has been very sensitive about being "wrong", but i did do that alot) At any rate, i now ask her "Do you really think that i think that this is "all your fault?", or that i think you should "never be able to hang out with friends" or that "you've [censored] up again"?" We talk back and forth for a few minutes about how we both did things that led us here, and she again says "but if not for the affair, you wouldn't be bothered by what happened tonight" Me: PErhaps not, but i SHOULD be bothered by it... any spouse would. Would you really not bat an eyelash if i asked two attractive women to stop by my office AFTER work to have a glass of wine, just the three of us?" Silence. In my job, if i did that, EVERYONE would raise an eyebrow and/or be talking about it and i might even lose my job." Her: "We're never "alone" in there or behind closed doors. And even when it is just down to the three of us the cleaning crew is in and out of the office space alot."

I mention to her also that Any one on one with doctor is a show-stopper, and that i would have objected had she said back in the fall that she was going to go hang out with him at his son's wrestling match. She says "Is that why you were acting funny on Monday, because i was talking to him alone" Me: "I didn't even know you were "alone" with him (i didn't, nor was i at all upset, concerned or angry)... I thought you just stopped by to ask him a question and make a suggestion about work." Her: "Yes, it was right at the end of the day" ME: "And most everyone was still in the office spaces?" Her: "Well, yes, but he and i were the only ones in his office and the door was open." Me: "I dont think you understand what i am saying,maybe i am not explaining myself well. That is not "alone". The more "alone" you get with him, the riskier it is, and more it concerns me, but that is not "alone". "You've just never really believed, have you, that men find you attractive, and that you can just be open and touchy and friendly with everyone? That's one of the things i actually love about you, is your openness and friendliness, but without appropriate boundaries, especially at the place we are in, it is risky."

I ask her what they talk about for three hours and she says "Work, our kids, sports... we almost always do it the day after the doctor's staff meeting so there is a lot to talk about." Me: "Do you ever discuss your MR and our difficulties? Who, in that office is aware of your situation... you're still not wearing your'e ring" Her: "Some people have noticed that i dont wear a ring, but i just play it off. Only GF and two other girls there know we are having any kind of difficulty or are seeking counselling." Me: Do you talk about his MR? Because the vibe i get when i am around he and his W are that it is not great." W: Nothing that i know about... we dont talk about that stuff."

Me: "What are you doing differently now than you were doing then? To protect our relationship? What boundaries are you setting?" W: "I think it's pretty obvious isnt it? No kissing, no touching except maybe for a friend-like hug, no dirty talking" Me: "Its just, this is something I would never do as a married man, invite two women by my office for drinks after work. It's just looks funny and improper and i think most people would agree." Me again; "Its not about prohibiting you from doing something, its about asking 'how can i still do this (see my friends) without taking dangerous risks with my marriage or sending the wrong signals or hurting my husband."

Other things i say (and pleas note this is stream of consciousness so kinda jumbled up): "When you text him about non-work stuff, why WOULDNT you also copy his W". "Is HIS MR doing okay?"

Idunno. Just when i think things are going well. It was a "hard" conversation, but MR said we need to be able to have those, even if our MR is fully healthy, and be able to recover from them. I feel a huge mash up of emotions over this. Resentment towards doctor because I think this IS improper and that, from his standpoint, it's disprespectful to me and my MR (and to the one or two other married girls' spouses when those girls sometimes stay after.) Frustration (yes, w was right there though i really think i wasnt showing it, no raised voice, no animated gestures or the like, just quiet talking) that W just doesn't seem to "get it" or, alternatively, just doesn't want to be told she's in the wrong and/or wants to do as she pleases with no ramifications. Jealousy (yes, that). Sorrow (Does she really not care how i feel about this). and emptiness... like we're drawing apart again.

The whole concept just seems so simple to me: Continue to see your friends (even the doc), just do it in a less threatening/dangerous way. Don't stay after three hours when you say you're just "Staying for A glass of wine" and then lose track of time (Last night she sais "it WASNT three hours..." (in fact it was almost three hours and fifteen minutes.) Go out to a public place or, better yet, politely decline when it is going to be fewer than four people total.

After we parted this morning, i called her. I said, "you fell asleep while we were still talking. I just wanted you to know that this is NOT about not wanting you to have friends or about saying "you cant hang out with these people"... "Its about finding a way to be friends with and hang out with those people that is safe and has appropriate boundaries."

Idunno. i just feel like the whole thing was a flop. Like i came off or she sees me as desparate and needy or controlling or whatever.

Ugh