I'm going to be changing the way I approach our M, and changing the way I look at things, and that these changes will, by definition, change our R. I said I hoped that these changes will be positive, and that if she's willing to work with me on this, I'm sure the outcome will be, but I also said I expect her to be uncomfortable at first, and that this is normal, it's just part of the process.
Tim, this concerns me. I think it might be wise to not set any expectations. Just let the "differentiation" work without letting her in on the "process". I'm afraid you might be trying to take some of the sting out what you are about to do by saying these things and it might be indicative of lingering fears. If she want's to know what's going on, tell her to finish PM so she gets all the other good stuff too. Sorry...this just my 2 cents.
Quote:
...if that continues there won't be much of anything to celebrate.
I thought that was excellent.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I'm afraid you might be trying to take some of the sting out what you are about to do by saying these things and it might be indicative of lingering fears.
Yeah, I think you're right, Dave. I'm finding out that this stuff is real easy to talk about... much harder to actually do.
Last night was interesting. W increased my respect for her immeasurably by taking a shower while S18's GF was in the house! You have to understand... we don't have a large house, just a small bungalow, and S18&GF were in the Family Room which is downstairs, and from there you can clearly hear the water running in the bathroom upstairs. So for W to take a shower under those conditions was really something. However, when GF left and it was time for "bedtime", things went a little differently. First of all, it was a bit of a challenge getting myself and W off the couch and in motion towards the bedroom. Once we got there (after much additional prep on W's part), and she saw I was serious about wanting the light on, she was immediately on the attack. She was all "You're not being fair, hitting me with all this stuff at once... isn't it enough that we're going to do it, do we really have to have the light on..." etc. So I knew right then that we weren't going to do it last night. At first I said "Okay, let's turn the light out", but as soon as we were in total darkness I knew I wasn't going to go ahead with it - it just wouldn't have worked. As she got into bed, she once again "explained to me" how on this particular night, leaving the light on was "just too much", NOT that she has a problem with it, mind you, but just not TONIGHT... so I said "Trouble is, with the light off it just doesn't do anything for me - I don't want to do it that way anymore." So there it was. I said if it had to be with the light off, I'd just as soon skip it.
She said she didn't know "why it had to be tonight", and I said that with the next day being Mother's Day, plus the 3-hour season finale of Survivor (which she's VERY much into), I said I thought she'd have an easier time tonight, but she said that tomorrow night (Sunday night) would actually be better for her, because "nobody has to go anywhere", etc., so I said fine, let's do it tomorrow night then. We then talked a bit (I talked a bit) about the Quantum model, and how I was trying to increase the EC so as to allow us to have a better marriage. I also told her about Hugging Till Relaxed, and said I thought it might be a good thing for us to try. Then she went back to the living room to read and wait for DD20's call that she was ready to come home, while I went to sleep. DD20 and her friends apparently waited outside the bar for 2 hours before finally getting inside, just an hour and a half before closing.
All in all an interesting evening. We met GF's mother when she came to pick her up. She and her husband are apparently splitting up - GF has been telling S18 about it. Sad... I wish we could help, but no way I'm getting in the middle of something like THAT...
Quote Tim "... so I said "Trouble is, with the light off it just doesn't do anything for me - I don't want to do it that way anymore." So there it was. I said if it had to be with the light off, I'd just as soon skip it." Yikes!!!??? Talk about burning your bridges Tim!! Are you sure this is a wise strategy Tim, or differentiation gone mad? SD
Quote: Yikes!!!??? Talk about burning your bridges Tim!! Are you sure this is a wise strategy Tim, or differentiation gone mad?
Well, SD, I can tell you that we ML last night, and that it was WONDERFUL! I don't have time to post more about it right now, but you'll be reading about this one in Super Success Stories later this morning. Lights on and everything!! Time will tell if I've gone mad...
Aside from the activities I posted in "Super Success Stories", some other things happened this weekend. Yesterday, W and I planned out what we're going to do to celebrate our 25th anniversary, and booked the tickets. We'll be seeing the musical "Hairspray", and the seats we got are nothing short of amazing - Orchestra level, 7th row center! We'll also be spending the night in a fancy hotel, and having a nice 3-course supper. The following day we'll get a one-hour boat tour of Toronto Harbor. I can't wait!!
When I was talking about this with W Friday evening, I was afraid it wouldn't pan out, because one of the things she wanted to make sure of is for her parents to stay with the kids. If DD20 has her license by then, she'll only have just gotten it, and W was most definitely NOT comfortable at the thought of leaving her the car! It's quite likely that both DD20 and S18 will be working that weekend, so they'll need someone to drive them there and back. Fortunately, her parents were totally cool with the idea - they'll actually be arriving a couple of days earlier to help us celebrate S18's high-school graduation, so they'll just stay through the weekend. So that worked out well.
Also, when I was talking with my parents yesterday, Dad was asking me what W and I would want for an anniversary gift. Needless to say, I couldn't answer that, since I have NO idea how to "size" such a thing. My parents are well off, and have been VERY generous with us, but I have NEVER had the ability to ASK for stuff like that. I just said I'd leave it with them to decide.
Quote: I repeated what Schnarch says. That "if you are going to reject me, that you make YOURSELF vulnerable...not me.
I found where this is in the book. It's in the "infamous" chapter 11, near the end (I can't remember the page number) - it's where the wife is FINALLY beginning to confront herself, and she asks "So what do I do if he wants sex but I dont? Just give in?" (or something like that) and Schnarch says to her "Be real about what you want or don't want, and be willing to say so. If you're going to reject him, do it in a way that makes yourself vulnerable, not him." Very important stuff...
Well last night I tried something a little different, with not entirely unpredictable results. Even though we just ML Sunday night, I decided I would try to initiate again last night. At lunchtime and again when she picked me up from work, W was complaining of a sore throat, due to allergies, but didn't show signs of coughing or sneezing and her voice was fine (no "frog in throat" or hoarseness) and she also seemed in good spirits. I did consider holding off because of the sore throat, but for one thing I had the sense that if it was choir practice night she'd be going to practice (where she's expected to sing), plus I was reminded that her parents are coming for a visit Thursday, so I decided to make my move and see what happened. I went into it expecting to be refused, but hoping otherwise. In the past I would have just "assumed" she was not available for sex, and avoided initiating, but this time I decided to try, and actually find out.
At 9:00 we were watching a special on TV (Dick Van Dyke retrospective), which we were both greatly enjoying, and she was in a good mood - talkative, joking, laughing, etc. So there was a point where a joke was made (by me or her, I can't remember) that was somewhat double-entendre-ish, and I said "Speaking of which, I would very much like to ML with you tonight." I can't remeber her exact response, and she didn't say "no" outright, in fact her response seemed to be affirmative, but after that she was a LOT quieter, and I could tell she was tense. We spent the rest of the evening watching TV, and at bedtime she said (in a whiny sort of voice) "Can we make it tomorrow night? I'm really tired." So I let it go at that.
So now I'm starting to see a pattern emerging. It'll be interesting to see if we end up ML tonight, but the pattern so far seems to be that whenever I try to initiate, she defers it to another night. I have not yet been able to initiate successfully even once. I also have to be very direct when trying to initiate, I have to specifically state my desire - she will not pick up on "vibes" or interpret cuddling and kissing to mean I'm trying to initiate. That means I have to make myself vulnerable, and be willing to "put myself out there". However, when I'm doing this, I'm not "being needy", and I'm not begging - I'm simply stating my desire to ML with her on a particular evening. I'm also no longer taking these refusals as a personal rejection, which means I have no need to get unduly upset or overreactive about it. I had already at least half-expected we wouldn't ML last night, so I was already prepared for that, and it didn't wound me. I do plan, however, to discuss with her as soon as is practical that I am going to continue initiating, and I will expect eventually to be successful at it, and that I am going to initiate on my schedule, not hers. I will no longer be waiting around wondering if "she is ready", I will be finding out. I am all about pushing the boundaries at this point, since if I don't do that, how will I find out where the "true" boundaries are?
Another thing I did the other night - my youngest sister separated from her H of 14 years about 2 months ago, and I finally got up the courage to email her and tell her about PM. I told her a bit about my own sitch, so she'd know I'm talking from personal experience, but I first got her promise not to share that info with *anyone*. She hasn't replied yet... time will tell whether she'll go for it or not. I let her know that even though they are separated, it is definitely not too late to save her marriage, if that is what she decides she wants. They have a DD9, so hopefully she'll decide to give it a try.
Quote Tim: "I will no longer be waiting around wondering if "she is ready", I will be finding out." I like this idea but it can only work if you can take the constant rejection. One danger could be that delaying by a day could become a habit which could easily move to delaying for a couple of days etc. knowing the LD way of thinking. It could be W is reacting to your differentiation by building a new barrier (day's delay) thus resulting in a new gridlock position.
Both you and I know that your sister would greatly benefit from this forum but you'd be wise not to suggest it given the level of detail you provide in your posts! SD
Tim,it sounds like you're really proceeding from a stance of strength and differentiation. That's great!
I feel I was in the same sich as you this past weekend when I went ahead and tried to initiate though I knew my H was stressed out and we had just had sex recently. I was successful because I maintained a level of differentiation but also I think because I "lent"my H some sexual functionality by being over-the-top seductive. It's harder to figure out how a HDH could "lend" sexual functionality to his LDW. Also, I'm not sure if it's always the right approach. If my H can only get turned on when I'm super-seductive, he will never have to deal with his own issues concerning arousal.
I don't necessarily think your wife's delay is a bad thing.She might know herself well enough to realize that she has to have time to self-soothe anxieties and fantasize into the mood before she can feel sexual. Maybe you could push her just a little bit next time by saying something like " I am so attracted to you,I really don't want to wait that long. If I give you some free time right now by taking care of x,y,z responsibilities, do you think you could try to relax into the mood in a couple hours?"
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I like the approach, but why not ask her for an immediate answer, yes or no? Be nice and give her 5 minutes to decide.
At least you can make other plans if she says no. Enjoy the TV show or head down to the local pub for a beer and game of darts.
I wouldn't sit and stew, or wait all evening to see what her response is. That is way too much control.
Just my $.02 -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Time will tell if I've gone mad...