What exactly did you tell her? I was thinking how nice it would be if I asked my W for sex, and she rejected me by giving me a BJ. I don't think that's going to work, however.
LOL. I repeated what Schnarch says. That "if you are going to reject me, that you make YOURSELF vulnerable...not me. By doing so, I won't mad or angry". HD (and everyone), THIS SHOULD BE EVERY HD'S FIRST STEP. Why? Because by asking them to make themselves vulnerable, it means that they have to look within themselves and circumnavigate the complex issues behind the rejection to come up with a simple "i'm sorry, but can we do it tomorrow?" type of response. The LDs have gotten so good at simply saying "no" as if on autopilot. This will make them actually "think" before they reject.
Quote:
I don't know you anymore. You're tearing this M apart
Excellent....keep doing it then. Those words, according to PM are an indicator that you are differentiating correctly. Don't let your W push you around with these scare tactics. I mean seriously, how can simply telling your W what you want out of the R "tear the R apart"?...that's a bunch of BS. She's trying to shut you down and keep you from differentiating. I will say that you have to make sure that your assertions are in nice, non threatening, non-confrontational way so that statements like that really seem out of context and odd. Knowing that her response is "textbook" will help you hold onto yourself in these situations.
How far through PM are you? It might take some drama in your household to get things back on track.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Hmmm. I must not be far enough through PM to have gotten to that "make yourself vulnerable" part. Does it mean you asked her that if she was going to say "no" she had to come up with a reason and be responsible for initiating within a reasonable time? I don't think we're there yet.
As for drama, I know, I've got several Acts ahead of me.
OMG! I just discovered the perfect 25th Anniversary celebration for me and W! You may recall that some time ago (about a month) she mentioned to me that she'd heard about a package deal that featured a play, a 3-course meal, and an attraction (a baseball game or a harbor tour). She couldn't remember where she saw the info, and I couldn't find it. Well, this morning, she noticed that the play Hairspray is playing downtown (Toronto), and I said that looked like fun (we saw the movie with Riki Lake years ago and loved it). Anyway, I just went online at www.mirvish.com, and DISCOVERED THE PACKAGE!! 3-course meal at a downtown restaurant (lots to choose from), tickets to either Hairspray, The Producers or Mamma Mia!, and a choice of a Blue Jays game, or a Toronto Harbour tour (or a Toronto tour, but who cares?). $175 per person! COOL!!! I am so excited - tonight I'm gonna casually say... "Which play would you rather see... (and then name the three)?" Wow, I can't think of a better way to celebrate (except maybe a cruise, but THAT ain't gonna happen..).
Well, another interesting bedtime conversation last night. That was when it had to happen, because the evening was just too crazy, and W never gave me the opportunity to talk with her earlier. Actually, that's almost half true. I did have opportunity, but couldn't make myself start it. For instance, there was at least one time while watching TV that I could have said something, but I didn't - chickened out I guess. I just couldn't think of a way to begin that wouldn't sound like I was trying to start a fight.
Anyway, like I said, the evening was very busy. S12 had a softball game from 6-8:15 (we WON!!), and when we got home from that, DD20 had to be picked-up at the mall, then there was a small lag till S18 got home from his band practice, but during that time W was flitting around the house doing laundry and such. The "opportunity" didn't come until at least 10:30, and I let it pass.
So as we were saying goodnight, I drew out the goodnight kissing into a longer-than-usual kissy-cuddly time, but there were no pretensions at anything more involved - I had made my normal bedtime provisions which include gluing my eyes shut with a mild saline ointment because of a condition I have, so LM was definitely not in the cards, but I wanted to make the goodnight kissing as sensual, loving and even erotic as I could. I was basically trying to slow things down, so we could feel each other, and increase the emotional connection. So after a few minutes of what I experienced as a very nice time with as much intimacy as is possible with eyes closed, I said "Tell me what you're feeling right now."
W: "Well, kind of tense, because I'm not clean, and DD20 is out (she went out late in the evening), and it's just not the right time for this kind of thing - the whole day was very busy, etc."
So I pointed out that I had not been touching her genitals or her breasts, and even though I had lightly brushed her rear with my fingers once or twice, I was demonstrably not trying to have sex with her, I was just trying to increase the emotional connection with her. I pointed out that even though the day and early evening had been busy and hectic, we had had some time to relax and take it easy, and DD20 had gone out by herself (a friend picked her up) and was getting home on her own, so she was not going to intrude on our time. W said that the past couple of weeks she has felt off-balance with me (good!!) and isn't sure how to respond to me anymore. She said she's trying to read the book, but she hasn't gotten much farther in the past 2 weeks (she's currently on page 89 or so, and she's been at about the same point for at least a week). She was basically asking me to slow down and give her some space, give her some time, let her work things out. I said (calmly) that I wasn't content to do that anymore, and that if we had to always wait for the perfect time, we'd be waiting forever. So I said that I will be initiating sex more often, and that I expect to be successful at least a good portion of the time. Not every time, but more often than not. And I will not be waiting to see if it's the "perfect time", but I will initiate when I feel we should ML. W said that, for instance, if DD20 is out with friends, she doesn't feel she could ML, because she'd be expecting DD20 might call at any time, etc., and I replied that as far as I'm concerned, it's time for us to unhook our love life from what the kids are doing, so I do not buy any such premise that just because DD20 is out we can't ML. In fact, to me, that just makes it better, because there's one less kid in the house to worry about.
I said, in so many words, that whether she reads the book or not, I'm going to be changing the way I approach our M, and changing the way I look at things, and that these changes will, by definition, change our R. I said I hoped that these changes will be positive, and that if she's willing to work with me on this, I'm sure the outcome will be, but I also said I expect her to be uncomfortable at first, and that this is normal, it's just part of the process. I also pointed out that our 25th anniversary is coming up in just 2 months (less, even), and that I want to really have something to celebrate, and that the way things have been going, if that continues there won't be much of anything to celebrate.
That's pretty much the gist of it, except that I also said I felt during the past week or two that I've been doing all the work, and that I need her to work on this also. I said I felt she is basically avoiding me, filling her time with "busy work" so she wouldn't have to deal with me. I wasn't showing anger or anything, I wasn't feeling that either - I was just speaking very matter-of-factly, and showing her just where my boundaries lie. This morning things between us are still light and easy, no signs of underlying tension or anything.
I think the answer at this point to the difference between my experience of this past week and hers, is that so far she still "just doesn't get it". She's still operating on the old premise. The place where she is in the book is just where Schnarch is talking about the quantum model of sexual response, so I'm planning to open a discussion on that sometime today, and draw the connection between that and what I've been trying to do this past week.
Tim, My W is similar to yours when S19 is out. She is constantly listening for his car. When he's in and has a friend with him she is paranoid they will hear us (despite the fact that they are in the den playing noisy games. S19 usually goes to bed really late and D16 is never in bed befor midnight and she ususally come in to see us for a chat in our bed. There is a lot of stress at ML time isn't there. At least you get some passionate kissing. I only get to peck her which can be close to her lips if I am quick enough as she is turning her head away. The journey is so long and it seems she's holding out until death do us part.
Quote Tim: "...and that the way things have been going, if that continues there won't be much of anything to celebrate." This doesn't sound very differentiated to me Tim.
Quote: Quote Tim: "...and that the way things have been going, if that continues there won't be much of anything to celebrate." This doesn't sound very differentiated to me Tim.
On the contrary, SD, it was an honest statement of boundaries from me to her. I was telling her in plain language that I am not going to "wait", I am going to change, and she then has a choice: defend the status quo, or come with me on the adventure.
I'm pretty proud of myself at the moment: supper tonight was just 3 of us - me, W and S12 (S18 and DD20 are working till 8:30). S12 finished first and left the table. I stayed and talked with W. As she was finishing, I was asking about S18's and DD20's plans for the evening - it seems S18 is having GF over for a while, and DD20 is going out... but first having some friends over "to get ready". Tomorrow being Mother's Day, W was also planning to bake a chocolate angel-food cake from a recipe she found (low-fat). More on that later.
Anyway, I said "If I go pick up DD20 and S18 from work, do you think you could take a shower before S18's GF comes over?" She knew what I was asking. I even confirmed it by saying "I've already had a shower, and I'm thinking that if you get yours out of the way early, then later it's one thing we won't have to think about, so we can..." (sorry, I'm not yet differentiated enough to actually say it! But she knew what I meant...)
So she says "Well, you don't have to pick up the kids... I can take a shower, and anyway I'll have to pick up DD20 from the bar tonight..." (starting to make an excuse), so I quickly said, "Well, what time would you be picking her up?" The answer was "around 2:00 am", so I just said "So much the better - that way we can make good use of time that would otherwise be 'dead time' - you'd be up just waiting around anyway."
So it looks like W and I are going to ML tonight, despite a very busy day and evening, despite S18 having GF over, despite DD20 being out, despite tomorrow being Mother's Day, despite the fact that it rained all day... oh, and despite W's cake not even getting off the ground... she discovered at the last minute she doesn't have cake flower OR the kind of pan the recipe calls for... she was really pissed off, but what can you do? I remained calm and helped her through it. I also helped her with the dishes... kept right up with her dish for dish... her washing, me drying.
Wait till she realizes that I'm even willing to sacrifice the session if she's not into it later or if she comes to it with an unhelpful frame of mind...
