Well, I did try to initiate last night, but nothing happened, in part because I didn't have the courage to "put myself out there" and be explicit enough.
First of all, the evening didn't start out auspiciously. Before supper, S12 wanted to watch a video, but he put the tape in backwards and it got stuck in the machine. So now we have to bring the machine to the shop to see if they can get the tape out. S12 is going to pay at least part of the cost. So that was some aggrivation neither of us needed. Aside from that, there was nothing major, but the early evening was far from tranquil at our house.
However, we then spent most of the next 3 hours sitting on the couch, during which time I left NO doubt (I thought) as to my intentions. I was not just cuddling her... I was caressing her inner thighs, her arms, her tummy, and occasionally brushing a breast or her crotch. I would also at times run my fingers over her neck, and let them dip down into the top of her shirt, caressing her bare chest above the breasts (just the upper chest near the base of the neck). I thought I was feeling her respond. I was certainly getting turned on.
During this time we watched Survivor and the Friends finale. S18 was out, and came home around 9:30. After Friends, I really should have said something like "I would really like to ML with you tonight", but I didn't, because I thought she was on the same wavelength. But Leno came and went, and then she said "Well, it's time for bed... (yawn) - I am so tired..." and that was that.
While preparing for bed, I was definitely disappointed, and had to self-soothe, at which point I decided I would stand up for myself and speak to her about it. When she came to bed, we had something like the following convo:
Me: When we were sitting on the couch tonight, were you thinking that I wanted to ML with you tonight?
W: No.
Me: Oh, okay... that explains it. Because I did, and I was trying to initiate tonight. I was making things all cuddly, and caressing you...
W: I was just so tired tonight, and all day I was stressed out, and...
Me: I know... I'm tired too. But if we have to wait for the perfect time...
W: We don't have to wait for "the perfect time", but...
Me: I guess I need to be more forthcoming...
Anyway, I'm out of time at the moment, but that's the flavor of it. The best part is that the conversation was matter-of-fact, and didn't turn into a big fight, which it would have before. Later, I'll post some major differences in ME and how the "old me" would've handled this, vs. the "new me"...
In the past, I would definitely have felt personally rejected, and I would have felt that she must have known what I wanted, and was therefore purposely ignoring me, and it would have left me seething. I would not have talked to her about it, or if I had, I would have been saying very different things, and it would have led to a big argument at bedtime. And in truth I did feel personally rejected at first, and I had to calm myself down in order to talk with her about it. As I was preparing for bed, though, it occurred to me that perhaps she hadn't picked up on my "vibes", and I should at least confirm that before proceeding. And it turned out that indeed she had NOT picked up on it - from her POV she just thought I was being cuddly with her, and I'm sure she appreciated that. So we were on two different wavelengths, and experiencing the evening from two different viewpoints. No big surprise there. It does cause me to think, however, that whereas I've been feeling a growing emotional connection with her this week, perhaps SHE has not been noticing it to the same extent, so I'm definitely going to have to talk with her to find out more about this. I obviously need to be up-front about the fact that I want and need to establish a connection with her that will grow and flourish. I'm determined to be "in the moment" with her, and to let her know that I expect her to be "in the moment" with me, at least some of the time, and I think we also need to discuss our respective signalling styles so we can be more in tune with each other. I want to reach a point where she will have enough respect for me that if she knows early in the evening that I want to ML, and she feels it isn't going to happen that night, that she would let me know so I don't feel let down at bedtime. And/or maybe we could work to find a way for it to happen anyway sometimes.
One thing, I bet something will happen this weekend anyway, since she now knows I was hoping to ML with her last night, and she may be more in tune with the possibility in the next few days. We'll see. I also still intend to continue trying to initiate as well. Not only that, but when we DO ml, she's got some additional surprises coming her way... Example: I'm gonna want the light on...
Quote: and occasionally brushing a breast or her crotch
And she didn't know what you were up to? I don't buy it. But you still shouldn't take it personally. What I'm coming to understand is that we HDs have to stop seeking sexual validation from our LD partners. You have to believe that you are a sexy person and not responsible for your partner's arousal difficulties. That is their problem. They are the one's who need to do work in that area.
If I was your wife and you had done as you described with me, I'm certain I would have been fully aware of your intent and also quite aroused.
But you don't need me to tell you that either. You and I and all the rest of the HDs can learn to self-validate our sexuality and then and only then will we be differentiated enough to insist that our spouses do some work too.
Here's what I'm going to insist on with my H. If I approach him in a strong and sexy way and he is just too LD at the moment to respond appropriately, he needs to do the following:
1)Be honest. 2)Be courteous. 3)Take responsibility for trying to get over his LD mood. 4)Take responsibility for the next encounter. 5)Validate my sexuality. (This one shouldn't be necessary, but it would be nice.)
For example:
M: Do you want some action?
H: Thanks for asking (courtesy).You look very sexy in that new dress(validation) but I'm really not in the mood right now (honesty). How about if I take a nap (working on his LD mood) and we get together after dinner( taking responsibility for the next encounter).
M: Ok. I'm glad you like the dress. Meet you back here after dinner (wink).
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: And she didn't know what you were up to? I don't buy it.
Yeah, I don't completely buy it either, but for now I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I have been being a LOT more cuddly this week, and I'm willing to believe she just thought I was doing more of that. It is entirely possible for both participants in a particular encounter to experience it in completely different ways, which is something I learned from PM, so I'm willing to believe that was the case last night, especially since she was tired, and she has been wrestling with allergies lately, although that does seem a lot better in the past day or so (which was one reason I was so hopeful about last night). But the fact remains that I was not very up-front about it, I just thought she'd pick up on my "vibes", which I was definitely feeling. She didn't, or she ignored it, so my assumption at the moment is that I have been experiencing this increasing EC, but maybe she hasn't. So it's time to discuss it, and get to where we're on the same page about it. I don't want her to be able to pretend that things are all fine and dandy when they're not, and I don't want to continue feeling like we're in sync when we're not. I know we can't be in sync ALL the time, but we need to get to where we can "read" each other better - that's part of increasing the EC.
The fact that I was able to think this through and not feel PERSONALLY rejected (or at least get PAST that feeling) shows me that I am definitely less dependant on her validation of my sexuality and sexiness. I know I am a sexy guy, and I know I can turn a woman on, I don't need her to validate that for me. However, I do have certain expectations of how a marriage should be, and I'm now going to be standing up for those beliefs and expectations, and letting her know in no uncertain terms just where my boundaries are. It'll be interesting to see how she chooses to respond...
Tim, This is where the rubber meets the road, PM style, in my opinion. It is very easy to self soothe when you really BELIEVE what the other person is saying. (ie, the allergies) But when you half suspect that they are pulling a fast one on ya, then it becomes a whole different ballgame. This is where the hard stuff begins.
If I were you I would explain to her that you felt that the cuddling was indeed taking on a sexual nature and that you were sorry that she missed your intentions. And in the future, you will be more forthcoming about what your desires are....and THEN ask her what you could have done to make your intentions clearer. Does she like whispering in her ear while you are caressing her, etc. HOW would she like you to initiate at that point, is what you need to find out.
IOW, you waiting for her to take a bath every single time has to go. I hope that you can communicate this to her in the most loving fashion that you can conjure. I'm sure all this scares her but I know that you love her enough to force the issue and help her take a look at what has to change in the relational dynamics.
Being RECEPTIVE to me is still a hard one for my H. He is quite enthusiastic if it is his idea but not so much if I am the one who starts things.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I agree with Mojo. I think that your wife DID know where you were headed, or at least suspected it, and played dumb afterwards. However, that is not the end of the world. Hold onto yourself and have the conversation that you really want to have with her. She may be telling you the truth in that she needs a very obvious form of initiation or she misses it. My H is like that. I find it hard to believe, given that a common refrain from the LD wives is to knock off the pressure.
Anyway, keep us posted! Sounds like things are really going well for you. A couple weeks ago, I don't know that you would have even been sexually cuddling with her for hours on end. That is progress, indeed!
Yeah, HP, and scares me too. I guess I really AM afraid that you and mojo are right, and I really don't want to think that, but one thing you ARE right about is that she and I need to talk about this, and in a loving way, and I already have that in the plan. Another change in me is that it's not going to take a week for me to "get around" to having that conversation, either - it'll happen tonight. She cannot have missed that this is my main focus at the moment, and that I need it to be HER main focus as well. Yes, she has 1001 things on her mind, and that's okay, but US also needs to be on her mind at this point, and the willingness to do something about it...
First, you need to realize that her reptilian brain was in control and probably in conflict with the neocortex. It's just that when we are tired, the reptile takes over. I've now learned that I have to make my intentions way more clear than physical initiation because my W, after 7pm is in reptile mode and likes to be hypnotized by the 32" flashing box. The physical signals are getting processed by the reptile and not be allowed to be processed in the neocortex. It simply requires that you tell her what you want to do. Remember my post about my W not thinking the "initiation" meant something sexual was the end result? The LD mind has some defense mechanisms that seem childlike. Give yourself a break. It sounds like its going to take a little more pressure. The best "differentiation" exercise I did was telling my W how I want to be rejected. It sounds like you are about to tell her how to interpret your signals. Hang in there. Things will work out. Don't expect anything this weekend just because she knows you wanted it last night. The pressure of that knowledge will be playing havoc with her and her reptile will be fighting her best intentions.
Quote:
It does cause me to think, however, that whereas I've been feeling a growing emotional connection with her this week, perhaps SHE has not been noticing it to the same extent, so I'm definitely going to have to talk with her to find out more about this.
This is something I talked to my W about because she doesn't feel any "more" connection than she used to. She sees it as *me* becoming more connected at a level closer to hers. It might just not be a priority to be "more" connected for our Ws yet. I'm trying to figure this one out.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Tim, I'm the LD (lower desire) wife in my marriage, and I DISAGREE that your wife knew that your intention was to make love simply because you were cuddling with her and caressing her.
My interpretation, based only on my own feelings and past experience, is that cuddling and caressing in and of themselves are very pleasurable and relaxing and aren't necessarily preludes to sex. Back in my late teens, even when I made it clear to my boyfriend that I wouldn't have sex for fear of pregnancy until I went away to college and could get BC pills at the health center, he still enjoyed caressing my body, so I was used to that without it leading to ML. Even after going on the pill and later getting married, my boyfriends and then my husband enjoyed touching and caressing my body while watching TV or at the movies without it leading to sex (and it's important to remember that erogenous zones are not confined to the genitals and breasts). In other words, caressing and cuddling don't always equate to foreplay for sex.
In fact, about the only time caressing and cuddling leads directly to ML is when we're in bed already or there's been some other indication from him (words, partially undressing me, oral and/or manual stimulation "down there", etc.) that he wants to ML. We're now ML about 5 times a week because of Michele's advice in TSSM, but we've figured out our own system of communication (direct words, code words, or certain touches or other nonverbal communication) where he lets me know that he would like to ML or would like me to initiate.
My advice, as one anonymous stranger to another, would be to give your wife the benefit of the doubt and accept her explanation at face value. Then, take Michele's advice that if at first you don't succeed, then try something different (perhaps adding some direct or indirect verbal expressions that you want to ML with her while caressing her). One other thing that I've discovered is that I'm more likely to really get into ML if I'm focused entirely on ML and my husband without distractions such as the TV, kids, worries that somebody will walk in on us, etc. Conversely, if there are other distractions, I'm not focused on sex.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Quote: The best "differentiation" exercise I did was telling my W how I want to be rejected.
What exactly did you tell her? I was thinking how nice it would be if I asked my W for sex, and she rejected me by giving me a BJ. I don't think that's going to work, however.
Also, you said:
Quote: The LD mind has some defense mechanisms that seem childlike. Give yourself a break.
Ain't that the truth? My W's defense mechanisms are effective, but repetitive: too tired, too hot, too cold, too itchy, too full, too ticklish, and of course, the backup and best one of all, "too much pressure."
Quote: This is something I talked to my W about because she doesn't feel any "more" connection than she used to. She sees it as *me* becoming more connected at a level closer to hers. It might just not be a priority to be "more" connected for our Ws yet. I'm trying to figure this one out.
I've been thinking about this, too, because whenever I bring up my lack of connection with her to my W, she always claims that she is very connected to me...except of course when I "pressure" her by saying that we need to work on the R, which is when she says, "I don't know you anymore. You're tearing this M apart." Anyway, perhaps it is as hard for them to understand our lack of connection w/o sex, as it is for us to understand their strong connection in the sexless atmosphere.
Hairdog - wondering why it has to be so difficult.
Quote: My interpretation, based only on my own feelings and past experience, is that cuddling and caressing in and of themselves are very pleasurable and relaxing and aren't necessarily preludes to sex.
Yes, I agree, that was my interpretation as well. It occurred to me that the emotional and sexual "muscles" I'm asking W to flex haven't been in use for a very long time, and there's bound to be a lot of atrophy there. So I'm very much in the mood to be understanding and go slowly, and give her time to "get up to speed", but I'm also going to be standing up for myself and letting her know that I'm expecting our R to become more sexual, and that this is how I see our M evolving.
Dave, you're right, of course, about the reptilian/mammalian element of control, and I have definitely discovered I need to be more direct, at least at the moment, and also more ready for the inevitable rejections to come. I like your idea about telling her how I'd like to be rejected - I'll work on that.
Quote: because whenever I bring up my lack of connection with her to my W, she always claims that she is very connected to me...except of course when I "pressure" her by saying that we need to work on the R, which is when she says, "I don't know you anymore. You're tearing this M apart."
Hairdog, that is a sure sign you are increasing your differentiation, and she's noticed, and she's uncomfortable with it. That is a normal and natural reaction. When we increase our differentiation, our SO will often experience it as "being manipulated", but as long as we're not seeking to manipulate, but rather standing up for ourselves, we need to "stick to our guns", and not back down. Sticking to the game plan will increase both our respect for ourselves, and (eventually) our spouse's respect for us. And it "has" to be so difficult, just because it is. That's life...
Example: I'm gonna want the light on...
