Okay, well... interesting discussion this evening. I am definitely on the right track, because she is PI$$ED!! She is sure that what is in store for her is nothing but pressure, pressure, pressure for all kinds of kinky and disgusting acts of perversion. She has read all of chapters 1 and 2, plus the beginning of Chapter 3, and all she's gotten from it is that it's ALL ABOUT SEX!!
I'm pleased to report that I did an excellent job of holding onto myself during the entire discussion, didn't get overwhelmed once, even though her message was almost entirely discouraging. I even managed to keep smiling and sounding calm and reasonable. Right now, of course, I'm shaking a bit, but I'm still remaining positive. This is a GOOD SIGN! It means I've touched a nerve, and she will ultimately have to challenge some closely-held beliefs. I will be getting LOTS of practice at holding onto myself in the days to come, I'm sure. I'll keep y'all posted with as much as I can...
Hang on tight. Best of luck to you. I'm waiting a bit to have W read it because she's in the middle of the other Dan Brown novel. Today was tearful on her part but she got very affectionate tonight. I'll post about it on another thread.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I'm waiting a bit to have W read it because she's in the middle of the other Dan Brown novel.
Ain't priorities grand?
Woo-hoo... things got BETTER last night. By the time we got in bed, W was much calmer, and still willing to talk! She started by apologizing for being so negative, to which I said her feelings were totally understandable, and she didn't have to apologize for them. I said change is always uncomfortable and scary, and I understood completely where she was coming from. She then said she just wanted me to agree and validate that her meno stuff is not "all in her head", but is based on physical changes in her body. Notice I bolded the word "Validate". So I then said I completely understand and agree that menopause is a physical thing with real symptoms, and pointed out that she didn't need ME to validate that for her - she could do so herself. I also said that if I had said or done anything in the past few weeks (but especially in the past week) to indicate that I thought she was faking, please point it out because that is NOT what I would want to do, and I would want to challenge myself on anything like that.
The original conversation and the one in bed are kind of mixed up in my mind, and I won't be able to give a very clear picture of them, but by the time we went to sleep, she was feeling a lot better towards me, I think. During the original conversation I mentioned that in the book, one of the things Schnarch does to help couples move ahead is to analyze their sexual interactions, using that as a window into other areas of their lives. I said I thought it would be very useful for us to discuss our own sexual interactions in a similar fashion, to see what kinds of interesting information might come to light. I mentioned, for instance, that for us it's ALWAYS in the dark, with eyes closed, and there is very little intimacy or connection between us - it's very much a sequential solitary act for us. So we had a bit of a discussion around that, and I think we're going to have a number of discussions on that topic, I think it will be a fruitful one. She said that the reason she wants the light off is because she doesn't want the kids to be able to walk past the door, see the light on and surmise what's going on.... well, hey, it's a small house, and when we're SLEEPING, the door is always OPEN, so what does she think a CLOSED and LOCKED door (not that anyone's ever tried the handle) would signify? So just as we were falling asleep, I said "What does S18 do when he wants to pull an all-nighter without you finding out?" (answer: he stuffs a towel along the bottom of the door).
Anyway, you guys get the idea. Lots of great discussion. And yes, she was REALLY threatened at first, but she seemed to rise to the occasion at the end. I'm expecting lots of similar events in the next few days as she struggles with herself over this. I think it'll be REALLY interesting when she meets with her C tomorrow... wish I could be a fly on the wall.
Forgot to mention... W and DD20 started at Weight Watchers last evening, and when they got home, and had gotten settled, W comes in and says "So, you want to go in the bedroom and talk?" - she was clearly in a hurry about it, and had a very argumentative and "let's get this over with" demeanor. She said she had a TON of stuff from WW to read, so I said "Why don't you read that stuff first, and we'll talk later. I don't want to have a rushed discussion... I want to have a GOOD discussion." So we read for about a half-hour, and then when she made tea, I followed her into the kitchen and we began our talk there. Continued it into the Living Room, and then (as I wrote above) finished up in bed. Wow, I can't wait to see what the rest of the week has in store. I think we'll make some good progress!
I haven't really been able to provide much of a sense of what went on last night, partly due to my excitement at how it really went, and partly because I haven't had much time to get my thoughts organized enough to post it - and the posts I have made have been done in haste. So I'll try to fill in some of the blanks if I can.
When we began the conversation in the kitchen, W was very negative regarding the book, because, in her view, "it's all about sex." She saw it as mostly saing that she just had to "put out", because I wanted her to. She felt it was just a way of putting pressure on her, to do things she didn't want to do. She said several times how she just didn't see how this was going to help her relax enough to be responsive. She could see why I was so excited about it, because it seemed like a way for me to get "more of what I want", and her view was that this meant she would get less of what she wanted. So I drew her attention to the aspects of it about differentiation, and asked her if she had thought about what that might mean. I also asked her if she had noticed whether I had stopped doing things for her during the past week, and pointed out that I had not. In fact, I am still doing more of the things that need doing around the house, but my motivation has changed. I'm no longer doing these things in the hope of "getting something back", but just because they need doing, and because I know it makes her feel good, which makes me feel good. I also agreed that, yes, the main focus of the book is on the sexual relationship, and how it can energize and renew the rest of the relationship, and that I saw nothing wrong with that (and many things right with that).
One thing that sort of tied into this was a conversation we had on the phone at lunchtime. She was describing having talked with her friend earlier in the morning, and how this friend was saying that she and her H were going to be going to France together, and that she was worried about leaving her D15 at home during the trip. Now, she has her MIL living with them, which is a built-in sitter, so that would be no problem at all. And I pointed out that this woman has invested so much of her self-image in her children and how dependant they are on her, that she actually has to find ways to keep her kids dependant on her, esp. with her D15, because if her kids no longer "need" her, then what does that leave her with in terms of her self-image? So I reminded W about this, and pointed out that if our self-image is so tied into our M and each other, we are then vulnerable to any change in either of us or in our M - it attacks our sense of self. Whereas if we can become more differentiated, we are less vulnerable to that, plus we can be more intimate with each other, which will improve many aspects of our M.
As we continued the conversation in the L.R., W was still saying how she now felt she was being pressured for "sex every day", and I asked her how many times in the past week I had pressured her for sex. She had to answer "none", so I asked her then where is this pressure coming from? I think she sort of began to confront herself that the pressure was coming from herself, because of the way she was viewing what PM was saying. She complained that right at the beginning of the book, it's focussing on the sexual aspect in detail, and what she took from it was the "selfishness" aspect - i.e. if she doesn't "put out" she's being selfish (this was in response to a story about a couple called Bill and Joan, and a specific incident where he lost his erection, which was a pattern with him, and he figured that meant the LM session was "over", but Joan wanted him to satisfy her orally, which he initially refused to do, and instead of getting angry and huffing off to the spare room, she simply lay there awake and alert, with the deafening silence confronting them both with his selfishness). I asked W if she thought he was not being selfish under those circumstances, and she had to admit she thought he was, and then mentioned a different example where the woman doesn't mind giving her H a BJ, but not after he has entered her, because she didn't want to taste herself, so Schnarch points out that she is displaying an interesting form of self-rejection, since she obviously considers her H's genitals to be cleaner than her own. I pointed out that this was simply the "good doctor" pointing out an inconsistency in that woman's POV, which pointed to her habit of low self-esteem, and W didn't have a good comeback for that. So we were able to start using the material in the book to create some good discussion points.
Another thing I pointed out to W is that if she reads just a little further, she will begin to see how this all ties together to not only improve sex, but also other aspects of the relationship, and not only our relationship with each other, but her relationship with herself. I asked her if she was reading the book just because I want her to, and she initially said she was, so I pointed out that I would rather she read it for herself, and this caused her to re-think, and realize that she DID feel it was in her self-interest, because it will help her to understand the things I am doing and saying.
I think that's about all I can add at the moment. If I can think of anything else, I'll add it.
I would say that her reading the book is a good step in the right direction Tim. My W is still a long way from reading any books although she no longer objects to me reading them so maybe one day she will. SD
!WOW! I ordered PM on Sunday afternoon. Yesterday I got the shipping confirmation. Just a few minutes ago W informed me it arrived today! I wuv amazon.ca!!
Grrr. I ordered mine last week and it still hasn't arrived. There were no new copies in the UK so I ordered a used one from the US. It's probably coming via the slow boat. SD
Last night was somewhat interesting. Early evening was fairly stressful as all 3 kids were going out at various times. S12 had a softball practice at 6, S18 had to go to work around that time as well, and DD20 was preparing to go out for the evening, so Supper was fairly rushed, and this being the first day on Weight Watchers for W and DD20, it was very stressful as W had to figure out what to prepare and then make, in effect, two different meals. And she did NOT choose easy things. Suffice to say, the kitchen was a DISASTER. So while she was bringing S18 and S12 where they needed to go, I got a good head-start at organizing and tidying, which W appreciated (even tho she had told me to leave it). I then dried while W washed, and she had to go at 7 to pick up S12, so I pretty much finished up. Later, tho, W took a phone call informing us that a fairly close acquaintance's husband had died suddenly that morning, so we have a funeral to go to on Saturday.
At any rate, even with all the stress and rush, W and I were able to have some nice cuddling on the couch, and when we went to bed, I spent some pleasurable minutes kissing her very slowly. I took Schnarch's advice to slow down enough to feel her, and I definitely felt the connection.
Wow, I cannot believe my amazing luck! I feel like I was born under a lucky star, or something!
W saw her C again today, and while she was preparing supper, I asked her how it went. Okay, so I hope you're sitting down...
First, she said her C goes "Oh, that book? Oh that's amazing - I'm really happy you're reading that" - it turns out this C has not only read it, but has also attended at least one or two seminars on the subject!!!!
THEN, she says that apparently something less than 1% of men would have sought that book out - something about how it makes them too vulnerable...
So, bottom line, W is working with a VERY PM-positive C, and I'm about to BURST with happiness. Just to add a cherry on top, as W and I were talking, I disclosed how one thing I had noticed about myself because of the book is how I have a LONG history of not getting what I want and not being able to stand up for myself, and she was able to connect that with other things in my life, such as my R with father, etc. COOL!!!
I cannot WAIT to see how this all shakes out... I feel very blessed.
