Thank you, Cathy, that was a very thoughtful and insightful reply.
Quote: The thing about meno is that if allowed it can easily take control of your life and become an excuse. A real excuse but just an excuse. It can become a cop out and it sounds as if your wife is using it to cop out on some things. That isn't a negative judgment, I fully understand where she is coming from, having been there myself.
I think you're right on here. I've been feeling that way myself. I'm hoping that with the help of PM, we can discuss this issue frankly, and discover how we are BOTH contributing to the "problem" around this issue.
I loved your story about your new R! What an interesting coincidence. Just this morning, I had the thought "What if you kept the same level of desire, but suddenly YOU were the LD part of the R?" I have to admit, I have NO idea what would happen. I do hope I'd have the ability to hold onto myself and maintain the connection, and build on it. That's what this is all about. Not that you don't FEEL pressure, but that you REALIZE that the pressure is coming from within yourself, from your own fears and lack of self-confidence, and you confront yourself on that, and soothe yourself, and discover that you CAN maintain your SELF even in the face of the "demands of the relationship", and you can find it within yourself to ACT out of Love, instead of REACT out of fear. Does that make any sense?
Wow...Cathy's quote, somewhat edited for emphasis:
Quote: What I realized this morning is that I feel inept because I can't keep up with him sexually. [. . . ]I come away from those experiences feeling worthless, like I have let him down, was not able to satisfy him. I have put pressure on myself because our sexual appetites don't match up and that pressure is causing me to make a stink in the relationship. I can see though where, if I had not learned to be more introspective that I would have eventually ended up blaming him and his appetite for my own insecurities. [. . .]It isn't really pressure coming from you but from herself because she feels unable to keep up with you in that department. When we are in a situation that is important to us we want to do well, we want to know we are able to give what the other person needs. When we feel we are failing at that, at times it can be easier to stop even trying than to figure out why or how to be better equipped.
Talk about your lightbulb moments. My wife is an overachiever, a perfectionist. She really does fantastically at almost everything she puts her mind to. But I have always had a bigger sexual appetite than her, and she has probably felt unable to keep up, and has consequently felt inadequate. So she quit trying. The "pressure" she has told me about feeling is sometimes so innocuous--a sigh, as I roll over (I sigh almost every night. It relaxes me.) A comment about something sexy on television. (Yet she is free to bring sex-related matters up at her leisure.) A hand placed under her shirt and resting on her belly while snuggling in bed. She told me later, "I thought you intended to move it up to my breasts." So now even my intent (of which I had no such intent) is even pressure. Let's face it, my mere presence in her life is pressure.
I suppose it should be no surprise to me that I'm really not pressuring her at all, unless I actually try to touch her breasts or her groin. Unless I actually say, "you ALWAYS reject me" after she's rejected me for the umpteenth time in a row. Or unless my sigh is one of those theatric, wheezing sighs that I'm not apt to make in such a circumstance (more likely, I give those for humorous effect when some type of food I'm not going to get a bite of is involved).
So, the pressure she feels coming from me, is actually coming from her inner frustration that she can't keep up with me. She needs to take ownership of it. It's not my intent to pressure her to have sex. It's not my intent to make her feel bad that we don't have sex. Although, admittedly, it was, at one time, one of my stupid tactics...but that was years ago. Now, in conversations we have had on the subject, I just tell her that TSSM describes to a tee what her rejections make me feel like, and would she please read it. Lately, I've even stopped suggesting that, when I realized that the only part of the book she seemed to be reading was the part for the HD spouse, so she could tell me where my behavior did not conform to what Michele said it was to be.
No, the pressure of my presence in her life is not my fault. I love her. I give her attention. I talk to her. I sleep in the same bed with her. But the fact that she feels pressure from the slightest thing is not my responsibility (when there is no intent on my part). It's her responsibility. When I tell her that I miss the connection I used to feel when we were comfortable with our intimacy, I'm not asking her to "keep up with me." I'm asking her to work on feeling comfortable with being intimate with me again.
hairdog, you're getting really close to the truth! So close, I'm sure you can taste it. Tastes good, doesn't it, but with bitter overtones.
You're absolutely right that her pressure is coming from inside herself, from her own fears and insecurities, and also from the fact that so far she's unwilling to face those fears head-on. She has not been willing to confront herself on them. She has not been willing to work through them - she wants to avoid them and deny them. So realizing this, you have a responsibility (born of respect for yourself and your own sense of integrity) to challenge her to reach inside and confront these fears. Not by being belligerant or argumentative, and NOT by pointing out her "inadequacies" to her (she is ALL TOO aware of them anyway), but by gently and firmly standing up for yourself with her and showing her that you respect yourself too much to accept this version of your marriage without trying to explore what it could be. I strongly urge you to read PM - you'll be AMAZED at how it will affect your thinking. But you're close - so close...
Quote: I loved your story about your new R! What an interesting coincidence. Just this morning, I had the thought "What if you kept the same level of desire, but suddenly YOU were the LD part of the R?" I have to admit, I have NO idea what would happen. I do hope I'd have the ability to hold onto myself and maintain the connection, and build on it. That's what this is all about. Not that you don't FEEL pressure, but that you REALIZE that the pressure is coming from within yourself, from your own fears and lack of self-confidence, and you confront yourself on that, and soothe yourself, and discover that you CAN maintain your SELF even in the face of the "demands of the relationship", and you can find it within yourself to ACT out of Love, instead of REACT out of fear. Does that make any sense
I have to tell you Tim, having the roles reversed as they are in my relationship is very strange indeed. I had never once wondered how it would feel to be the one with less drive. Yesterday was a wonderful day with this person. Nice picnic and time outside, snuggling while we watched a movie. By the time he left last night though all I could feel was recentment. I had wanted him gone hours earlier and after he left I sat and cried.
He has so much more sexual stamina than I do!! After sex I find myself making excuses for not lingering and being affectionate...need to go to the bathroom, need a drink of food, anything to get myself up and away from him and the reminder that I'm feeling less than whatever it is I feel I should be for him. The entire time I'm doing this I'm checking him out wondering what he has done to cause me to not like his attention any longer. It's a hoot when you finally get it!!
It is partly about holding onto yourself and maintaining the connection. You want to hold onto the healthy aspects of yourself and be able to recognize and correct the unhealthy. That is the hard part because I think we are all programed to deny those aspects of ourselves.
I think the key to being able to get what you want out of any relationship is to first feel you deserve whatever it is you want. Bottom line for me and my life is low self-esteem. I don't put myself in situations where I might begin to feel bad about myself....I protect myself from that at all costs. I miss out on a lot in life that way.
The trick is to learn that, no matter what the situation, if you are feeling inadequate or unable to function at the level you feel others expect of you then you are worthy of voicing those feelings. Voicing those feelings....saying something as simple as, "I love you but, I fear letting you down because I can't keep up with what I think you want from me" is very freeing and it doesn't mean you are less a partner.
It means admitting a weakness to yourself and your partner. I think then and only then can we build genuine intimacy with someone. When we are willing to take the chance on them making adjustments to our needs. Then you are acting out of love for yourself and the other person, you are giving both parties a chance.
Realizing where the pressure is coming from is a big thing but the real work comes from healing that aspect of ourselves that causes us to feel such pressure. Cathy
hairdog, I can't ad much more than Tim has already said as far as your post. I will say that you must be able to empathize with her and her issues before you can even begin to do for yourself the things you need to do.
Don't "poor thing" her but do show her empathy and stop internalizing her lack of desire for sex and making it about you. It's about her. May not even be in the same way that I have described here about myself and my situation but whatever is going on, it is about her and not you.
By the way, I'm a perfectionish too. For as long as I can remember my mother has said, "if you want something done right get Cathy to do it." I learned at a very early age that I was good at what I did but I was never taught to forive myself even if I tackled something I didn't feel I was all that good at. My father tells me I'm a quitter, my mother tells me I'm the best. I work hard at proving her right but, many, many times I prove him right. Now, the only person I need to prove anything to is myself. Cathy
Quote: ...but by gently and firmly standing up for yourself with her and showing her that you respect yourself too much to accept this version of your marriage without trying to explore what it could be.
Wow, Tim. Wow wow wow. This thread is providing lots of lightbulb moments for me this morning, too. (And Lord knows I need them!)
Quote: anything to get myself up and away from him and the reminder that I'm feeling less than whatever it is I feel I should be for him.
Cathy, what is this "whatever it is I feel I SHOULD be for him"? Who says you should? Why? Are you put here on this earth for HIS comfort and enjoyment??? Really!!!
No, I'm not yelling... I hope you "hear" the smile on my face. But seriously, examine those words. The word "should" is a judgement word. You or someone else is judging you, but also your FEELINGS and SELF-WORTH. Who?? Careful about thinking that way.
The important thing is not what you SHOULD feel. The important thing is not what you SHOULD be.
The important thing is what you DO feel. The important thing is what (and who) you ARE.
Follow that line of thinking - I think you will soon feel the excitement.
Heavyheart wrote:
Quote: Wow, Tim. Wow wow wow. This thread is providing lots of lightbulb moments for me this morning, too. (And Lord knows I need them!)
HH, I am also having many, many lightbulbs going on at the moment. Instead of the excitement tapering off, it just keeps building...
Well, here's another update. What I'm trying to do here is create a journal, and just post up here what I do, what W does and what the result is. I'm hoping for a couple of things with this. First, this will give me something to refer back to to see if I can spot any patterns. Also, if I find that something leads to success, this might help not only me, but others as well. I'm trying not to edit too much, so hopefully this becomes a pretty "true" picture of what goes on, at least from my own viewpoint.
Last evening I wanted to have a discussion with W about what we've read so far in PM, and her impressions of it, and hopefully to get into a discussion of the concepts with her as well. It didn't happen. First of all, we were somewhat late finishing supper, and after the dishes were done, she wanted to sit and read for a few minutes (30 or so) before dessert. Then we had dessert, and there were kids in and out until about 9:00, then there was a movie on that she thought looked good. So at that point I sort of gave up on the idea of having a good discussion, and also we were both tired due to 2 rather late nights in a row. Saturday night S18 had his GF over until about 11, and DD20 went out drinking, and didn't get home until after 3:00. W doesn't sleep well when DD20 is out, so I knew she was overtired on Sunday evening. Friday evening, of course, was our big discussion. So the whole weekend had left us pretty tired.
This morning at breakfast I said I wanted to have a discussion this evening about PM, and W was not disagreeable (not enthusiastic, but not disagreeable). On the way to work, after dropping S18 at school, I told W that I had ordered a copy of the book from Amazon - just to let her know that it will be arriving sometime this week. That was the last word spoken until we got to work. Her goodbye kiss was NOT warm, and when we parted she looked rather sad. So I'm expecting it'll be an interesting discussion this evening...
You've got me a bit confused now Tim. Quote Tim: "I told W that I had ordered a copy of the book from Amazon" Is this a separate copy for her or do you like it so much you've bought yourself a second copy? I am still waiting for mine to arrive. SD
The copy we're working with right now is from the library. I can have it out on my card for two 3-week periods, and then she could check it out for another two 3-week periods, but I wanted my own copy that I could mark up for myself, as well as that would then give us each a copy we could read without having to watch to see if the other wanted to read it. Plus, this is a book I want to live by, so I want to OWN it. I think W saw my buying it as a "threatening" gesture, because in her mind (I'm interpreting here from her reaction) if we have a copy from the library, and we're both reading it, why isn't that "good enough for now"? Why would I want to BUY a copy if we have it from the library? I think even though she's read most of the first two chapters and has therefore received a good bit of the theory (as well as some practical examples), she hasn't quite "bought into it" yet. Her viewpoint is very much "Go slow... don't change too much at once... give me some time". I started reading Divorce Busting yesterday while she was reading PM, and the focus of THAT book is that changes CAN and MUST be made quickly for the good of the M. So that gave me still more determination to hold onto myself in the face of her contrary viewpoint, and to stand up for my own beliefs.
