Update: Just got home from work. When W picked me up, I could cut the tension in the car with a knife. She is feeling seriously threatened by what she thinks I have in mind. Trust me, if I had mentioned this earlier in the week, which would have "given her more time to think about it", she would have spent that time building this up in her mind to astronomical proportions, and it would not have been a kindness. It would have been MUCH better if I could've broached this subject out of the blue in the evening when we could talk about it right then, but I could see that wasn't going to happen, so I had to do what I did. She has gone to drive S18 to work. As she left, she said she'd be stopping at the drugstore to get some vitamins. Remember that she has spent most of the past month researching which vitamins would help her with her meno symptoms. During that time, we have ML twice, and in neither case were there any meno symptoms worth mentioning. The fact that she is buying the vitamins NOW is a clear indication to me that she is trying to give herself something she can point to and say "See, I am working on this... have more patience with me and wait a while to see what these do." I've wrestled with what I've just typed, because it could be argued that I am analyzing her motives and putting words in her mouth, but I don't think that's the case... I'm just interpreting her actions. Actions are often used to send a message, and I think the message is pretty clear on this one. Beyond that, I'm not attaching any particular importance to this, if she IS setting up to try to deflect my intent, it won't have that effect. I'm not being adversarial about this, although it may look that way. I'm just determined to stand up for myself and point out that she is not the only one who is entitled to try to improve our marriage, and I do not have to just sit idle and wait while she works on things. Should be an interesting evening (and weekend)...
Hey Tim - Sorry your W is so stressed about this. Would it maybe help if you gave her a little control/power over the situation, but still didn't completely let her off the hook for the conversation you wish to have with her? Perhaps something like..."Dear, I can see how stressed you are and I in no way want this to be a stressful experience for you. I just wanted to talk to you about some exciting changes I'm hoping to make for myself. If you are uncomfortable talking about it tonight, can you pick a time between now and Sunday that we can sit down and really have a heart to heart?" It sounds like she's scared of confrontation, or of being called "wrong" in all this. I would be nervous, too, if I were her. Good luck, whatever happens!
I have read a website about sex and they said that one of the best things that a women with menopause can do is ML, a lot. Evidently their are chemicals given off only through vaginal sex that actually help a women in menopause. Also, regular sex will help to keep the women more regular. And another Doctor on Oprah said that women that orgasam 200 times a year will take 6.5 years off their natural body age. So, from what I have read, sex during menopause is GREAT medicine. Yea. like our wives are going to believe that one! LOL!
Are you trying to add to the depression of the HD women on this board? Did Oprah mention if self-constructed orgasms count towards the 200? LOL(but crying inside)
NMB
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
CeMar, NMB, this is a serious thread to me, about my efforts to apply the principles in Passionate Marriage. Please don't hijack it.
Well, as I expected, it was an interesting evening. First, S18 had to work from 5 to 9, so when W left to drive him to work, she was leaving about 4:45 or so. She mentioned she was going to be looking for some vitamins while she was out. She was gone for an hour, and came home with no vitamins. When she got in the door, it was time to start supper - BBQ hotdogs. After supper (and yes, I helped clean up) it was very quickly time for Game 1 Mtl vs. Tampa Bay (4-0 Tampa, it won't be much of a series). Lest you think I was remiss in watching the game instead of talking with W, for one thing, the kids would have wondered what was up, not because I'm so into sports (I'm not, really), but it's been so long since Montreal has gone this far, our WHOLE family is Montreal fans, and it would've just been a wrong note. At any rate, W was keeping herself busy with other things (laundry, hiding out in the bathroom) and even if I had the TV off, I'm pretty sure she would have been unavailable. As you'll see later in the story, she was determined to control the entire evening, and she did - nearly.
Around 9:00, she left to go get S18 from work, and I turned the game off (it was too pitiful). S12 went to bed around that time also, but remained awake and "active" until nearly 10:00 (got out of bed to interact with S18 when he came home, etc.). S18 went on the computer (at the bottom of the stairs, just under the L.R.) when he came home, and W went into the kitchen to make tea and toast. Came back to sit by me while the water boiled, but remained silent. When the water boiled, she went in there, and I followed her in, to see if we could grab a little privacy to chat a bit, but she was NOT in the mood - she said "We need to have a talk" and I initially thought "Duh, isn't that what I said this morning?" but then I realized she was wanting to talk to ME about HER issues - basically rag on me about how I don't understand what she's going through. I was wanting to say to her that her behavior was giving me a clear signal that she thought I had some major agenda, and I tried to get that across, and also that I just wanted to talk about how we can make our marriage what it should be, but she said she had spent the day working things through in her mind, and crying (or almost crying) several times, and that SHE needed to talk to ME, but she didn't want to do it while she was having her tea and toast. I went back into the L.R., and she finished her tea in the kitchen. Around 10:10 or so, she came out, and we went into the bedroom to talk.
She insisted on going first, and I sat quietly and listened to her. Before she started, she wanted to know what had made me seek out "that book", and I told her it was on the recommended reading list at the back of SSM, and she nodded, like "I thought so." She talked about how, during these past few weeks, she had been feeling really good about US, due to the fact that not only was SHE working on the things like meno research etc., but I was also more present to her and the kids. I had been doing more around the house, helping with the painting, and the Easter celebrations, and not expecting anything in return from her. She was making heavy use of the past tense in talking about how good she had felt. She said she's dealing with a Medical Condition (menopause), and that I "Just Didn't Get It". She said that this instance of ND on her part is "different" from "all the others", because THIS one is due to a Medical Condition she has no control over. And she does NOT appreciate that, when she is doing everything she can to try to deal with this, and all the other things (starting to cry at this point), like emotional kids and hectic schedules and cooking and cleaning, she does NOT appreciate when I read "those kind of books" like SSM and PM, and get all obsessed with that. She pointed out that I'm not even 50 yet, and I have NO signs of aging, and so I can't POSSIBLY understand what she's going through. So I'm just dealing with "this one thing", while she's got "all this other stuff" to deal with.
Wow, I was glad I had read the WHOLE book first. Through this entire tirade (and, indeed, through the entire conversation) I was able to hold onto myself and avoid getting overwhelmed. I found I didn't even really need to do much self-soothing, although I did do various things like take a deep breath from time to time, and at one point (we were sitting on the bed), I lay down and got comfortable, which helped me FEEL more comfortable. Not only was I able to keep my emotions under control, but I was also able to say to her all the things I had been planning to say, and do so in a firm but gentle voice. I didn't raise my voice even once, and by "raise my voice" I'm not talking so much about YELLING (S12 was asleep in the next room) as about "yelling in a whisper" or speaking with venom - I didn't do any of that. In fact, I also noticed that SHE did far less "whisper yelling" in this conversation than in previous similar conversations.
Anyway, at some point she sounded like she was getting to a point where I could start to speak, so I asked if I could respond, and she said "by all means". As I began to respond, she kept jumping in and wanting to interject things, and I had to ask her several times to show me the same respect I had shown her, by listening to me as I had listened to her. One thing you should know, is that in the past, being interrupted in this way was always one of the QUICK BUTTONS she could (and often did) press to "set me off", and I would go off like a ROCKET, very predictably. I HATE being interrupted, especially when I'm trying to say something very serious, as at this time. I have always interpreted it as being the epitome of lack of repect. Anyway, this time I didn't react at all, except to gently and firmly remind her that I expected the same respect I had shown her. I had to do this several times, but eventually she stopped interrupting. I said that I, too, had felt pretty good about how things had been going, and that during the paint project and the Easter celeb., I had been freely giving of myself without expecting payback, but that I realized that last week (before PM) I had been being manipulative, by doing things for her in the hope of quid-pro-quo, and she said yes, she had picked up on that. Then I said I really had just wanted to talk about this book, and how it had given me some profound insights, and I wanted to share that with her, and that while I feel it would be a REALLY good idea for us to read it together, I would not "require" her to do that, nor would I nag her about it, but that I was going to begin acting on it, and making changes in myself based on it, and that if she wanted to better understand what I was doing and why, it would be good if she read the book sooner rather than later. I said I was going to start wanting to discuss things with her more openly and forthrightly, and I offered kissing as an example, and how we used to do a LOT of it, and how lately we do almost NONE of it, and she again brought up the meno thing (Medical Condition), but I said I didn't see the connection to kissing. I made a commitment to her that I will not ask her to do anything that would violate her Medical Condition, but that I didn't see anything about kissing that would be prevented by menopause.
Anyway, it was a LONG conversation, and it went back and forth. She became more and more convinced that "it's all about sex", especially since I would not deny that sex is a large part of PM, and a large part of a healthy adult marriage, and that I was not going to "make it go away" for her. Again, I never raised my voice, which I think bugged her more than anything. I could feel her anger rising all during the session. The conversation lasted over an hour. I did ask her directly if she would be willing to read the Introduction and Chapter 1, and she agreed she could do that. Finally at about 11:30, I suggested we go to bed, because it was late, I was tired, and we didn't seem to be covering any new ground. We started preparing for bed, and I went to use the bathroom and discovered S18 was in there, so I had to wait. Went back to the bedroom and discovered W was in bed, and reading PM. Long story short, she read up to p.32 last night before going to sleep. I think she was too angry to sleep at first.
Anyway, it's a start. Things are finally in motion. This morning she still seems angry - it'll be interesting to see how things progress from here. I'm still holding onto myself, and in fact, I feel kind of relieved now that the waiting is over, and we're making a beginning.
I know I've forgotten so many important points from last night's conversation, it's very difficult to remember all the important stuff to post from such a long and interesting conversation.
However... here is one fragment that I recovered from the trash heap.
At one point while we were talking, W did something I think is VERY significant... she actually CONNECTED THE DOTS on our desire-difference "problem" ("issue", "opportunity"?). She was trying to explain how it doesn't take much for her to feel pressured, and that this can happen from something I say or do that seems so small and insignificant, and she said something like "It's like when we were first married, and you said that you were ALWAYS ready and rarin' to go, and when I wasn't, it felt like all this pressure on me all the time..." - and she was comparing it to the present time where she "feels pressured" because I still want sex and intimacy with her even though she "can't" (meno issues). Hoo, boy! So, if I understand correctly, what she's saying (and I'm not real sure she realizes just how much she let slip) is that she knows this has always been an issue with us! She knows it, but she keeps trying to sidetrack the issue. It causes me to want to ask her "What is it you're so afraid of?" It truly seems like she is afraid to let me SEE her. Afraid to let me truly FEEL her. Of course, this whole time, I've also been afraid - afraid to "put myself out there" by trying to initiate, because I might get rejected (who am I kidding... I knew darn well I'd get shot down more often than not). I've even been afraid to talk with her on a lot of topics. Man, it hurts like he!! to realize that. How pathetic is it that I have to "set the stage" in advance, just to get to talk with my wife?
So this morning, while she was otherwise occupied, I spent some time re-reading most of Chapter 1. W has gone now to bring DD20 to her LAST exam at University, and she took the book with her. She'll be gone at least a couple of hours, so she'll get a bit deeper into it. I'm looking forward to hearing what she has to say about it. The first part of the chapter relates a story of a couple in therapy, and it is pretty graphic in its discussion of sex between them and the issues surrounding it, so you think "Okay, I'm reading a book that's primarily about sex", but then as the chapter wears on, it becomes much more a discussion about the dynamics of marriage and debunking of widely-held beliefs about love and intimacy, so it'll be REALLY interesting to hear her take on it. Regardless of whether she continues to read it, I'm going to be ordering my own copy (this is a Library book), because this is a book I'm going to try to live by from now on. And I will no longer be willing to apologize to W or anyone else for expressing who I am and what I want out of life...
Quote: W has gone now to bring DD20 to her LAST exam at University, and she took the book with her. She'll be gone at least a couple of hours, so she'll get a bit deeper into it.
She got to page 68, so far! That's chapter 2. I had only sought her agreement to read the Intro and Chapter 1. I have told her how totally impressed I am.
You know, Schnarch recommends that each member of the couple buy it, to support the "differentiation" of each. Also, to support Schnarch's three kids who happen to be attending very expensive schools, his Jaguar mechanic, his gardner, his prostitute, his investment portfolio.....
I will be ordering at least one copy this weekend. That will probably arrive sometime early next week. In the meantime, we're good with the library copy for up to another 11 weeks (we get up to two 3-week periods each). At that point, if we feel we want another copy, we'll order another. No, I don't see it as a cash grab - this is a book I'm going to live by, and I hope W will as well. If we're both living by it, we'll each want our own copy. I agree with Schnarch on this - a book becomes a personal thing - or at least some books do. This is such a book...
I'm a 50 year old woman who has done the menopause thing. It WAS NOT smooth sailing....was actually one of the most horrific things I've ever been through as far as my body and changes in my body. The thing about meno is that if allowed it can easily take control of your life and become an excuse. A real excuse but just an excuse. It can become a cop out and it sounds as if your wife is using it to cop out on some things. That isn't a negative judgment, I fully understand where she is coming from, having been there myself. Take this into account. Right now she is dealing with chemical changes in her body that causes her to be sensitized to stress and evidently she feels this issue is very stressful. What she is going to have to do is stop allowing the syptoms of meno to take precedence over life. Only she can make the decision to do that.
Quote: She was trying to explain how it doesn't take much for her to feel pressured, and that this can happen from something I say or do that seems so small and insignificant, and she said something like "It's like when we were first married, and you said that you were ALWAYS ready and rarin' to go, and when I wasn't, it felt like all this pressure on me all the time..." - and she was comparing it to the present time where she "feels pressured" because I still want sex and intimacy with her even though she "can't" (meno issues). Hoo, boy! So, if I understand correctly, what she's saying (and I'm not real sure she realizes just how much she let slip) is that she knows this has always been an issue with us!
This relates to something that is happening in my life. Something happened yesterday afternoon that caused me to spend last night and this morning putting a lot of thought into it. You know, trying to analyze my reaction to the situation.
I am dating a very nice man who is always ready and rarin to go. I was a high drive wife who has wished for just this kind of man in my life. HA!! Now that I'm there it's causing some emotional upheaval. This person could have sex morning, noon and night and can last and last and last. I can't do that!!
So, here I am with what I have always wanted, a man who loves me, adores me and desires me and I find myself withdrawing from him.
Lately I've been finding little things to dislike about him. Stupid stuff like his toes are too long or his teeth aren't white enough. I've been looking externally for something that is going on internally. It is so much easier to see life that way.
What I realized this morning is that I feel inept because I can't keep up with him sexually. There have been times during love making that I've had to ask him to stop because it would become painful or I would be spent physically and couldn't go on. I come away from those experiences feeling worthless, like I have let him down, was not able to satisfy him. I have put pressure on myself because our sexual appetites don't match up and that pressure is causing me to make a stink in the relationship. I can see though where, if I had not learned to be more introspective that I would have eventually ended up blaming him and his appetite for my own insecurities.
Maybe this is what your wife means by the pressure she feels. It isn't really pressure coming from you but from herself because she feels unable to keep up with you in that department. When we are in a situation that is important to us we want to do well, we want to know we are able to give what the other person needs.
When we feel we are failing at that, at times it can be easier to stop even trying than to figure out why or how to be better equipped. I know I had this huge light bulb moment this morning when I realized I was about to ruin a very nice relationship by making my issue a relationship issue.
I’m pleased for you that she has managed to read so much of the book so quickly. I will be extremely pleased for her if she is able to interpret it in a way that helps her deal with her issues.
Cathy
