Not sure what to do. . .can anyone help?

[mbe76]

So, it is Mother's Day here in the UK this Sunday, and I have bought her cards off the Children, and Chocolates. I have also booked a meal, as I am detaching at the moment- is this a good idea or not? Or should I just leave it with the cards and chocolates??

[SteveLW]

I'd do the cards. Keep the chocolates yourself and enjoy them! LOL

And then I would book a meal FOR HER AND THE KIDS! Do not include yourself. She is not your mother. If your mom is still alive spend your day with her. If not, find something for yourself to do. WHen she asks if you will be joining, tell her no you have plans.

That is my advice anyway.

[mbe76]

I'd do the cards. Keep the chocolates yourself and enjoy them! LOL

And then I would book a meal FOR HER AND THE KIDS! Do not include yourself. She is not your mother. If your mom is still alive spend your day with her. If not, find something for yourself to do. WHen she asks if you will be joining, tell her no you have plans.

That is my advice anyway.

I think I will give her the Cards and the Chocolates (from the Children who are 6, 4 and 2) as for the meal, I think you are right . .I will just cancel it I think.

[sandi2]

180's are:
I am not messaging her all the time like I used to.
I would always initiate conversations- I don't do that anymore.
I am not telling her my thoughts or feelings in an open manner
I am not asking her permission for things.
We would normally have a meal with each other- but as I am also on a diet- I do not sit down for a meal with her anymore.
It is hard sometimes not to want to message her especially about the children etc.

Looks good. How well are you sticking to them? When you are initiating calls & texts, it is pursuit. It also makes you appear clingy and needy. The same thing about you initiating the conversations.

My question is, when you told her no contact with the OM.......was this your boundary? I gather that it was. So, when she was not ready for you to see her phone, you later thought it over and decided you should not take away her phone? Can you clear this up for me?

Yes it was a condition of us being open to the idea of taking one day at a time- that is when I said that if we were to work thing out one day we would need that honesty and no more secrets. I handed the phone back the following day as I realised my reaction was borne out of emotion not rational thought.

Okay, so how do you plan to carry out that condition of being honest and having no more secrets? MBE, you can't trust her. She is addicted. If she is not willing to be honest with you, what is your next step? If those were your conditions in taking a day at a time to work through the problems.....what do you do now?

I don't plan to look at her messages, I don't think that will serve any purpose other than to feed my little green jealous gremlin inside, and I don't think it would serve any purpose. I am hoping that guilt will become too much and she will eventually make the decision for herself. I keep repeating- I cannot control her- so let her come to her own decision- it is just that while she continues to message him, I am in limbo.

If you have decided you don't want to know what is going on between your W and OM, that's your choice. Currently, she is lying to you, and I think you know she is.....but you don't know what to do about it. You keep saying you can't control her, but don't use it as an excuse to be completely powerless.

It is true that you cannot control another adult. However, I think you are are having trouble with boundaries, and you are making yourself appear weak in her eyes. I can tell you are a gentle person with a good heart, and I'm not here to try and turn you into a buggerbear. However, if I can help you prevent yourself from looking like a wuss to your WW, then that is my goal. Yes, I want the MR saved, too, but she has lost so much respect until she will never be attracted to you as a man, and her desire will never be unto you as her H, if you don't change your soft, frail tactics.

First of all, you need to forget about depending on guilt to push her into doing the right thing. Do you know of something that is stronger than guilt? How about addiction? How about a hard, cold heart? I could go on & on, but to cut to the chase...........your WW could continue her infidelity for years. I heard of one case that lasted over ten years at the time the H joined the board, and his WW still had not been moved by guilt to do the right thing.

I'll tell you what prevents the WW from experiencing guilt the way you would think she should. Years of resentment that have turn to bitterness.......added to self-justification, and you are looking at a hard-hearted woman. If guilt tries to get through to her, all these other negative feelings jump on the band wagon to remind her why she should grab a chance at a happier life with another man. She has all kind of built-in excuses to feed herself. She will not respond favorably if you continue taking the softer route. The only thing a WW respects is "strength". If she can see a strong male in her H, who will not succumb to her bullying........it could influence her heart. But as long as she gets away with screaming and b'tching and suffers no consequences......her disrespect will continue to climb, and her behavior toward you will get worse.

When the WW begins to suffer tough consequences due to her waywardness (especially her rebellious actions, infidelity, disrespect, etc) and her fantasy starts to crumble........her eyes will eventually see her reality. Then........THEN......the guilt hits. But as long as she has the best of both worlds, has her needs met by both H and OM, and she does not have to deal with any unpleasant consequences for her behavior/actions/choices.........who knows how long it might last. And, that is one of the reasons I harp on tough love, b/c as long as the H plays along with her game, or he is too weak to enforce tough boundaries.......she won't have much incentive to change.

I see a lot of signs of nice guy syndrome in you. That's going to be your biggest challenge. If you aren't familiar with that topic, read about it.

You are wanting to talk, talk, and talk to her about the relationship, and about your boundaries, and repeat things from the board to her. It has to stop! It is making things much worse. It may be one of the toughest things you've ever done, b/c you want to work out the problems by talking.......but you can't talk her back. Neither can you nice her back. Neither can you guilt her back.

Case in point, below:

BTW, when she started screaming and calling you a bully, what did you do?

I said I am hurt by your secrets, and I feel calling me a bully is unfair, so I am walking away" and I did, I was calm and never raised my voice.

I'm sorry if you think I am being rude or harsh, but I'll have to take that chance. I am going to be very plain spoken.. Your response to your W's screaming and calling you a bully.....was pathetic. Were you trying to make her feel guilty? Were you wanting her sympathy? Telling her you feel it is unfair, sounds like something a little girl would say. It's not what a grown man says to a woman who is screaming and making accusations. And then you announce that you are walking away. It is weak, weak, weak! If you think she is going to be attracted to that type of male behavior........then you don't know anything about women. And you sure don't understand one who is wayward. Listen, this is one reason she doesn't want to have sex with you. You've killed the attraction by not acting more like a dominant male. She sees you resorting to a feminine type of response, so she takes on more negative male characteristics. When a H stops interacting with the W like he has a pair of b@lls, then guess how she'll act? The exact way you see in your WW every day! Women will behave more femininely when the men act more masculine.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying. Go online and do a little research about husbands showing male dominance in the marriage relationship. It might help.

In a strange way, it gives me hope that she is in conflict, she cannot rationalise her behaviour right now.

Do you see what you are doing? Making excuses! You want to give her an excuse so you aren't required to stand up to her.

And I saw where you posted about all the validating you had been doing. No, it went beyond validation. You talked it to death! That was nothing short of kissing up, trying to talk your way into her heart. She may be wayward, but she is smart! She knows exactly what you are doing......and it turns her off!

So, it is Mother's Day here in the UK this Sunday, and I have bought her cards off the Children, and Chocolates. I have also booked a meal, as I am detaching at the moment- is this a good idea or not? Or should I just leave it with the cards and chocolates??

You are detaching at the moment??? What the heck does that mean......"at the moment"? Does it mean by meal time Sunday you will be attached again? Or, are you going to pay for everything, then hide in the shadows? You don't have a clue as to what you are doing......do you? You don't know how to set or enforce boundaries, and you sure don't understand what DB detaching is all about. Have you even read the book, or the links on Cadet's page? I'll tell you what to do. You go ahead and celebrate Mother's Day........in fact, show her a grand old time. B/c come Monday, you will need to start over from scratch, and this time.......things need to be a lot different.

[mbe76]

If you have decided you don't want to know what is going on between your W and OM, that's your choice. Currently, she is lying to you, and I think you know she is.....but you don't know what to do about it. You keep saying you can't control her, but don't use it as an excuse to be completely powerless.

What can I do? We are still under the same roof- albeit in separate rooms-

First of all, you need to forget about depending on guilt to push her into doing the right thing. Do you know of something that is stronger than guilt? How about addiction? How about a hard, cold heart? I could go on & on, but to cut to the chase...........your WW could continue her infidelity for years. I heard of one case that lasted over ten years at the time the H joined the board, and his WW still had not been moved by guilt to do the right thing.

I'll tell you what prevents the WW from experiencing guilt the way you would think she should. Years of resentment that have turn to bitterness.......added to self-justification, and you are looking at a hard-hearted woman. If guilt tries to get through to her, all these other negative feelings jump on the band wagon to remind her why she should grab a chance at a happier life with another man. She has all kind of built-in excuses to feed herself. She will not respond favorably if you continue taking the softer route. The only thing a WW respects is "strength". If she can see a strong male in her H, who will not succumb to her bullying........it could influence her heart. But as long as she gets away with screaming and b'tching and suffers no consequences......her disrespect will continue to climb, and her behavior toward you will get worse.

So as we are still under the same roof, what can i do in terms of consequences? Especially when the children are there. It is tough.

When the WW begins to suffer tough consequences due to her waywardness (especially her rebellious actions, infidelity, disrespect, etc) and her fantasy starts to crumble........her eyes will eventually see her reality. Then........THEN......the guilt hits. But as long as she has the best of both worlds, has her needs met by both H and OM, and she does not have to deal with any unpleasant consequences for her behavior/actions/choices.........who knows how long it might last. And, that is one of the reasons I harp on tough love, b/c as long as the H plays along with her game, or he is too weak to enforce tough boundaries.......she won't have much incentive to change.

I see a lot of signs of nice guy syndrome in you. That's going to be your biggest challenge. If you aren't familiar with that topic, read about it.

I agree.

You are wanting to talk, talk, and talk to her about the relationship, and about your boundaries, and repeat things from the board to her. It has to stop! It is making things much worse. It may be one of the toughest things you've ever done, b/c you want to work out the problems by talking.......but you can't talk her back. Neither can you nice her back. Neither can you guilt her back.

By starting from scratch again, I will stop talking- I am a natural talker and I will find this difficult- but I need to do this for my own sanity.

I'm sorry if you think I am being rude or harsh, but I'll have to take that chance. I am going to be very plain spoken.. Your response to your W's screaming and calling you a bully.....was pathetic. Were you trying to make her feel guilty? Were you wanting her sympathy? Telling her you feel it is unfair, sounds like something a little girl would say. It's not what a grown man says to a woman who is screaming and making accusations. And then you announce that you are walking away. It is weak, weak, weak! If you think she is going to be attracted to that type of male behavior........then you don't know anything about women. And you sure don't understand one who is wayward. Listen, this is one reason she doesn't want to have sex with you. You've killed the attraction by not acting more like a dominant male. She sees you resorting to a feminine type of response, so she takes on more negative male characteristics.

Yes, I have a lot of learning to do, and I accept that, and I appreciate your candour- There are lots of examples where she has had my b***s on a plate over the years, and the power balance has shifted, as she used the "poor me, mother at home" routine- little things by guilt tripping me every time I did anyting without her, like going for a few beers with pals etc.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying. Go online and do a little research about husbands showing male dominance in the marriage relationship. It might help.

I have read through many online resources, and read the "No more mr Nice Guy Book" and yes, it is depressingly accurate. Many of the issues it tackles are totally relateable.

Do you see what you are doing? Making excuses! You want to give her an excuse so you aren't required to stand up to her.

Yes- I am making excuses- because I am still coming to terms with the woman who I thought would never put us in the poition we are in.

You are detaching at the moment??? What the heck does that mean......"at the moment"? Does it mean by meal time Sunday you will be attached again? Or, are you going to pay for everything, then hide in the shadows? You don't have a clue as to what you are doing......do you? You don't know how to set or enforce boundaries, and you sure don't understand what DB detaching is all about. Have you even read the book, or the links on Cadet's page? I'll tell you what to do. You go ahead and celebrate Mother's Day........in fact, show her a grand old time. B/c come Monday, you will need to start over from scratch, and this time.......things need to be a lot different.

Yes- start from scratch is exactly what I need to do- Friday night was a typical weak response- I was going out and she started crying saying how I wanted my single life etc. and she threatened that she would go out with the OM and "I said if you want to do that, that is your choice" I was then walking out the door and she said she would like to talk, and we did, and I fell for it, hook line and sinker. I ended up staying in, I was blinded by what she was telling me- there was a line which didn't feel right and I should have trusted my insticts straightaway- she said "I could love you again" thinking back, it now sounds like a temp check to see if she still "had me". The following day, we went out with the Children and it *seemed* like a good day, but that night her phone pinged again, and I knew she is still lying.

I have read the DB Book, and took the Last Resort online training, implementing it though is tough when as you say, I have the nice guy trying to please everyone without putting my needs first- it is no wonder I have been getting things wrong by trying to hard to "fix" things.

When a H stops interacting with the W like he has a pair of b@lls, then guess how she'll act? The exact way you see in your WW every day! Women will behave more femininely when the men act more masculine.

You are right- I read the book "No more Mr Nice Guy" from cover to cover as soon as I read your reply, and I saw in that a heck of a lot of the man I have allowed myself to become- the constant put downs, and lack of me actually doing things I want to do instead of trying to keep the peace all the time, and failing miserably as my passive-aggressive mood pukes tunred into bitter arguments.

[sandi2]

I'm so glad to see what you've posted. Frankly, I did not know if you would come back. Since you've been doing your research online, I am much more hopeful that you are going to be fine.....with or without your W.

Quote:
If you have decided you don't want to know what is going on between your W and OM, that's your choice. Currently, she is lying to you, and I think you know she is.....but you don't know what to do about it. You keep saying you can't control her, but don't use it as an excuse to be completely powerless.

What can I do? We are still under the same roof- albeit in separate rooms-

As you you study more about the NGS and see it in your responses/interactions with your WW, or if we point something out that you don't see.....you will begin to see for yourself the ways you need to change. It is easy for me to suggest something, but it's more important that you see it yourself. Some men want us to tell them every little move to make, but those men are not digging and reading for themselves.

One thing we might consider adjusting, is if you state a boundary to her.......maybe you should not state the consequences. Let her wonder, wait, and see what you will do about it if she doesn't honor it. In the meantime, we can discuss a better way to help you develop a stronger stance. B/c if you don't feel it in your gut, you won't carry out a strong consequence to her not honoring your boundaries.

As your children grow up, you need to teach them about boundaries, too. How to respect boundaries, as weel as how to have their own personal ones. If they are not given boundaries from the parents, the kids are usually roudy and rebellious. In many ways, a WW is like a disrespectful, rebellious child who never was made to respect boundaries. Maybe she this was the case when you first M her, IDK. If she was, it makes things more challenging for you, but it is still possible to set this MR on the right course. The Captain just needs to take the wheel.

You have to realize and see her manipulation in how she works you like a puppet. I think you are already opening your eyes. We will discuss how to manage these situations.

IMHO, as you recognize your nice-guy tendencies in the interactions with your W, and begin learning how to think and act differently/healthier......you will begin changing little things that will make a lot of difference in you recapturing your b@lls. .

By starting from scratch again, I will stop talking- I am a natural talker and I will find this difficult- but I need to do this for my own sanity.

By "talking", I mean that is how you see the solution to working through the problems. I fully understand, b/c that was always my go to method. But it did not work in my MR. I had to learn that me talking had no influence on my H's actions. He responded to my actions. So will your W.

I don't know if you experienced bullying when you were a boy, but your W is bullying you, now. She screams and yells in front of the kids, and she belittles you. I suspect she threatens if you don't do such & such then she'll do whatever. It's basically the same thing a playground bully does to someone they see being weaker or afraid. Maybe she shouts order, etc., IDK. But, this behavior must stop! I just wonder, does she have most of the say about disciplining the kids? If you don't have much influence with her, she is not going to allow you to have a hand in how the children are are disciplined, either.

Anyway, back to how to respond to her verbal disrespect and bullying methods. I feel you leaving the room will have no impact, and she'll repeat the same action next time. So, what can you do? Perhaps a better question is.....what will you do? To be honest, it is a waste of time for any of us to make suggestions if you know you won't carry it out.

While reading your posts I see you making excuses. I don't mean that as an insult. I'm not sure that you even see what you are doing. I think she has done a brain washing you about the breast-feeding and allowing the child to remain in the MBR. Perhaps she has caused you to see her as helpless......but she isn't. She is no victim!

Living under the same roof is no excuse to accept bad treatment. If anything, you have more pull b/c of living under the same roof. Listen, I want to offer a thought. Is there anywhere you could keep spend the night, if you needed to be out/gone all night? I don't mean pay for a motel room, but just somewhere you could stay overnight? Like, some men have been known to sleep over in their office. That's simply an example. You need to think of somewhere you could stay overnight, in case you need to leave her standing alone in her spew. And, BTW, you do not share this information with her. If you have to walk away from her spewing some night.......you will not tell her anything about where you fe going, when or if you will return......NOTHING. As long as she has a phone and can call in case of an emergency....that's enough. The only thing you would need to say is, "Don't try to call me, unless there is an emergency with one of the kids".......the. You close the door behind you. Do you follow what I'm saying here? You need a safe place she knows nothing about.

We can't see into your house and don't know all the surrounding circumstances and details. That's another reason I said it is better for you to figure out what consequences are most effective. However, I will tell you if they are weak. So, figure out what you'll do, ahead of stating it. Share it on the board, to see if it shows male strength, or something else.

What would really make her think twice before she verbally disrespected you in front of your children? As I've suggested previously, if it's in public, I seriously think the H should immediately tell her he will not be disrespected in public, and leave her wherever she is sitting/standing.......to get home by herself. But that's just me. If you live where it would be incredibly dangerous to leave a woman in a public place......then you'll have to think of something else.

In my M, I knew when I had pushed my H too far. Although he would say nothing, and he never threatened violence or such......I knew when he was realy good and mad at me! It always cooled my heels, let me tell ya. I hated for him to be mad at me. So that leads me to wonder if you ever really show hou are really mad at your W's treatment? How does she know if you are mad? Do you sulk? Do you get quiet and stay off to yourself? Do you initiate or approach her with a talk, where you tell her your feelings? If these are any of your reactions to her disrespectful behavior.........it's not effective in changing what she does. It does not make her back up and shut her nasty mouth. It does not show her that you will not be verbally disrespected. So, she continues.

I saw right off that you wanted to "explain" too much to her. You wanted to discuss your boundary and tell what you would do and why. That is not appropriate or necessary when giving a boundary. Your boundaries are not negotiable, and you don't need her agreement or permission. Therefore, learn this.......no discussing a boundary. She does not have to understand it, agree with it, or anything but honor it. If she dishonors it, she will see the consequences. For now, don't discuss the consequences, okay? Do you have any questions about stating a boundary?

By starting from scratch again, I will stop talking- I am a natural talker and I will find this difficult- but I need to do this for my own sanity

.

You can talk to us about the stitch. Don't clam up and think you can't say a word to your W. Just don't use talking as a solution to the problems. Understand what I mean? Don't discuss her affair. Don't discuss her bad behavior. Don't discuss your boundaries. Don't discuss your actions. Stop explaining yourself to your WW.

May I suggest a few goals for this week?

1. No explaining your actions to your WW. You are a man! She is not your mother! You do not have to answer or give an account of yourself. She is the wayward spouse.....not you. If she accuses, blames, tries to play the victim, or whatever makes you feel you want to explain how it really is......don't say anything. Just give her a look that says, "Really!" or turn around and leave, but don't explain. Just let her think whatever she chooses, b/c you'll learn it really does not get you anywhere with a WW to always be explaining yourself.

2. No discussions about any topic in this post I have covered. (That saves me from rewriting it).

3. Figure out where you could stay overnight, without having to explain to a third party your reasons for staying there.......should the occasion arise that you need to stay away from your WW overnight for several hours or overnight.

What do you think? Can you work on these three things this week?

[mbe76]

I just wonder, does she have most of the say about disciplining the kids? If you don't have much influence with her, she is not going to allow you to have a hand in how the children are disciplined, either

Yes she does- in fact 90% of the time- for example this last Sunday, after being repeatedly told by my W to stop misbehaving, I raised my voice and told him to stop immediately, and there was another person there and there was no anger- just a strong but stern word- and after I said it I looked at the other person and flashed a quick smile to demonstrate I was not angry but in control- the W then berated me for shouting as we were driving off- while the Children were in the car.

Living under the same roof is no excuse to accept bad treatment. If anything, you have more pull b/c of living under the same roof. Listen, I want to offer a thought. Is there anywhere you could keep spend the night, if you needed to be out/gone all night? I don't mean pay for a motel room, but just somewhere you could stay overnight? Like, some men have been known to sleep over in their office. That's simply an example. You need to think of somewhere you could stay overnight, in case you need to leave her standing alone in her spew. And, BTW, you do not share this information with her. If you have to walk away from her spewing some night.......you will not tell her anything about where you fe going, when or if you will return......NOTHING. As long as she has a phone and can call in case of an emergency....that's enough. The only thing you would need to say is, "Don't try to call me, unless there is an emergency with one of the kids".......the. You close the door behind you. Do you follow what I'm saying here? You need a safe place she knows nothing about.

We can't see into your house and don't know all the surrounding circumstances and details. That's another reason I said it is better for you to figure out what consequences are most effective. However, I will tell you if they are weak. So, figure out what you'll do, ahead of stating it. Share it on the board, to see if it shows male strength, or something else.

My mum and dad have said I can stay there any time I need to, but she will know that is a safe harbour, so the other option is either my brothers or sisters. I know if I reach out to them, and explain why I would need it, they would let me stay there without her knowing where I am.

As I am GALing I told her I was going out, and she asked me "are you out every night?" and I replied "I don't know yet" last night she asked me if I was going out and I said I wasn't, she then disappeared upstairs and came down 20 minutes later dressed up and ready to go out, she then went out with him and I didn't ask her where she was going, I asked her what time she would be back and she said she wouldn't be too late, bear in mind I am out the door at 6.30am, she rolled in at 12:45am, and I told her "I am really angry with you, you said you wouldn't be too late and coming in at this time is too late, especially on a weeknight, I will not accpet this behaviour and if you do it again I will lock the door and yiu can find somewhere else to spend the night" I didn't give her time to respond and walked away. She is playing me like a fiddle....

So that leads me to wonder if you ever really show hou are really mad at your W's treatment? How does she know if you are mad? Do you sulk? Do you get quiet and stay off to yourself? Do you initiate or approach her with a talk, where you tell her your feelings? If these are any of your reactions to her disrespectful behavior.........it's not effective in changing what she does. It does not make her back up and shut her nasty mouth. It does not show her that you will not be verbally disrespected. So, she continues.

In the past I did express myself by getting angry, and whilst I don't want to get angry anymore, I do need to think of how I can express how angry I am, this is a WW who blames me for EVERYTHING wrong in the MR and she has cited my anger as one of those reasons. I think therefore I just need to tell her very clearly- without anger, say my piece and then walk away from her. I need to adopt a more stoic response when expressing my anger.

May I suggest a few goals for this week?

1. No explaining your actions to your WW. You are a man! She is not your mother! You do not have to answer or give an account of yourself. She is the wayward spouse.....not you. If she accuses, blames, tries to play the victim, or whatever makes you feel you want to explain how it really is......don't say anything. Just give her a look that says, "Really!" or turn around and leave, but don't explain. Just let her think whatever she chooses, b/c you'll learn it really does not get you anywhere with a WW to always be explaining yourself.

2. No discussions about any topic in this post I have covered. (That saves me from rewriting it). wink

3. Figure out where you could stay overnight, without having to explain to a third party your reasons for staying there.......should the occasion arise that you need to stay away from your WW overnight for several hours or overnight.

What do you think? Can you work on these three things this week?

Yes- after last night I was so tempted to ask her about the affair- but it would have served no purpose I cannot control a WW. I will not explain or try to rationalise her waywardness, but I will not allow her to shout or disrespect me again and in terms of a response- I am still not 100% because when I have left the house the Children get really emotional as the W says something to them like "Daddy's leaving us again" which I think is really cruel on them, if I tried to remove them from the situation and take them with me, she would threaten to call the Police on me like she did last time. If it happens when the Children are not there- it is simple- I will tell her and then leave the house- but as described above what to do when the Children are there is a real catch 22.

[mbe76]

Also, I read on another thread "The way a woman's mind is wired is such that she is unable to "love" a man she does not respect, and that she can't respect a man who would knowingly let her run around with another man" So what to do about this? You cannot control a WW, but the way it is at the moment is that I feel I am enabling her A.

[joejoe1]

Mbe,

IMO, a person can't love a person they don't respect. Before a person ever learns how to love another person they learn how to respect them. Respect births love.

On the other hand a person that loves themselves will not allow another person to disrespect them. So by allowing another person to disrespect you, you are basically telling them you dont love yourself.

So first you start loving yourself, second you state your boundaries, and lastly provided consquences when your boundaries are crossed(tough love).

Lastly, you need to look at your Sitch objectively, look at your Sitch from the outside, how would perceive yourself? If your W found out you knew all this time and didn't say anything how would she view you?

You are absolutely right you can't control a WW, but you can let her know you won't put up with her sh!t and manipulation. Let her know she is not as smart and sneaky as she think she is. Become her H again and light tower.

Oh and don't ask her about the A, if you have proof, present it to her and tell her you know she is in an A. Leave no room for her to wiggle or manipulate out. Tell her you won't be a M with 3 people, and start moving forward with your life.

I know I said lastly, but you not telling her is driving you crazy.

Sandi, also gave you some sage advice about your Sitch. She want you to start living through actions and not words.

So, Sandi, can correct me if I'm wrong, you gave MBE actions for the week, don't discuss the A, with your W. I think it's totally different than presenting the information and making his statements and leaving it at that. No discussion involved in that scenario.

So if you ask her about the A, it becomes a discussion, if you present the proof about her A, and leave no wiggle room, it becomes a statement. And dont let her draw you in. You present the info, you state you wont be in a 3 person R and get up and leave.(IMO)

[sandi2]

As I am GALing I told her I was going out, and she asked me "are you out every night?" and I replied "I don't know yet" last night she asked me if I was going out and I said I wasn't, she then disappeared upstairs and came down 20 minutes later dressed up and ready to go out, she then went out with him and I didn't ask her where she was going, I asked her what time she would be back and she said she wouldn't be too late, bear in mind I am out the door at 6.30am, she rolled in at 12:45am, and I told her "I am really angry with you, you said you wouldn't be too late and coming in at this time is too late, especially on a weeknight, I will not accpet this behaviour and if you do it again I will lock the door and yiu can find somewhere else to spend the night" I didn't give her time to respond and walked away. She is playing me like a fiddle....

Did the OM pick her up at your house, or you just knew she was meeting him?

if you are going to GAL without giving her details and telling her when you will be home.......then why would you ask questions about her, and then tell her what you'll do if she comes home late again? Did you not say you got the kids bathed and into bed at night? Were you in bed asleep and had to let her in the door? She doesn't have her own key? Although what she's doing is not acceptable, your approach to her appeared like a double standard. My suggestion would be to turn out all the lights and be fast asleep when she came home. If you are sleeping on the couch, this might be a good time to snooze in your comfy bed in the MBR. Don't wake up when she comes home. Don't drill her. Who ever comes home late gets the couch, otherwise share the bed.

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quote]Quote:
I just wonder, does she have most of the say about disciplining the kids? If you don't have much influence with her, she is not going to allow you to have a hand in how the children are disciplined, either

Yes she does- in fact 90% of the time- for example this last Sunday, after being repeatedly told by my W to stop misbehaving, I raised my voice and told him to stop immediately, and there was another person there and there was no anger- just a strong but stern word- and after I said it I looked at the other person and flashed a quick smile to demonstrate I was not angry but in control- the W then berated me for shouting as we were driving off- while the Children were in the car.[/quote]

This is simple a suggestion, that rather than raising your voice loud enough to get the children's attention, you excuse yourself (if necessary) and walk the kids a little farther away so as to be out of ear shot of their mother. Calmly but sternly tell them this is to the place or time to run & play with loud voices, but you all will be leaving shortly and then they will have a chance to use all that bottled up energy.

If your W makes snide remarks about it........then you need to put on your thinking cap, and maybe recruit ideas from other men here in what to do to figuratively put duct tape across her mouth. Now, my H could shut me up by just giving me a hard look. But something tells me it might take more than just a hard look from you, to shut her trap in front of the kids. (Maybe put head phones on each of them as you are putting seat belts on them........so they don't hear what you'll say to their mother)?

[quote]Quote:
So that leads me to wonder if you ever really show hou are really mad at your W's treatment? How does she know if you are mad? Do you sulk? Do you get quiet and stay off to yourself? Do you initiate or approach her with a talk, where you tell her your feelings? If these are any of your reactions to her disrespectful behavior.........it's not effective in changing what she does. It does not make her back up and shut her nasty mouth. It does not show her that you will not be verbally disrespected. So, she continues.

In the past I did express myself by getting angry, and whilst I don't want to get angry anymore, I do need to think of how I can express how angry I am, this is a WW who blames me for EVERYTHING wrong in the MR and she has cited my anger as one of those reasons. I think therefore I just need to tell her very clearly- without anger, say my piece and then walk away from her. I need to adopt a more stoic response when expressing my anger.[/quote]

First of all, I am still getting to know you, how you react to your WW's disrespect, etc. I agree that any attempts to get her to back down b/c of her seeing you angry......and actually expecting a positive result from her, is unrealistic. In the immediate future, you may have to remind me........cause I dislike female bullies and they make me mad, whether or not it gets you angry. I cannot give advice for you to do, if I feel anger from reading about her latest bad demonstration.

If she displays bad treatment toward you in front of the kids and/or other adults just to push your buttons and get an angry reaction from you........then the goal would be to let Mr. Cool show up. However, calmly telling her what you have to say and walking away.........doesn't seem to be working. Give me an example of what you calmly said to her Sunday and then walked away.

I can picture two scenarios. One guy sounds subdued, and she is not attracted to him. In fact, she acts out worst the next time, b/c she hates how he responds to it. He will explain how the kids were too loud and what he was trying to do, etc. He relates his disappointment for her lack of support, and how her obvious disrespect makes him feel. He may remembers something in DBing about validating......so he makes an attempt to validate her. Then he retreats to a place of safety. Does this scenario familiar? If it resembles your response, I don't think it is effective.

The other scenario I picture is guy who is so cool and sharp (lTo be clear, like James Bond cool and sharp) with his voice volume lowered, he can lean in closer......say one sentence, turn around and leave her upstanding there speechless. Now, if you are the second guy........then you have to be pretty clever with your words. This guy doesn't explain what (or why) he was trying to do with the kids earlier. He doesn't bring his feelings into it. This is about her show of bad behavior and disrespect to him. It is no longer about what he was doing with the kids or his previous intentions. Understand this, b/c the man knows "explaining" the whys and what's of his intentions earlier makes absolutely no difference---after she chose to berate him. But how many H's ate as cool as James Bond? Hummmm ;)k

So......remember your goal. Don't explain yourself to your W. One sentence that would work if my H said it to me is, "You know, Sandi, the behavior you displayed makes you incredibly unattractive. Such a shame others have to see that side". And then he would distance himself from me the rest of the day/night.

So now my question to you.......how do you see your WW reacting as you turn and nonchalantly walk away? Would she go after you, ready to verbally rip you apart? Would she bang and throw things around, may yell things back at you......but not follow you around? B/c the goal is not to antagonize her into worse behavior. It's to make her think of how it looks in front of others.

BTW, this is not stating a boundary. It does not have any consequences. I'm just saying if you are talented at getting your point across while looking cool instead of a beaten pup being sent to his cage........it could be a consideration. But don't depend upon me to supply you with the words. (James Bond, I'm not). Your response would have to come immediately following her bad behavior.

If you cannot refrain from "explaining".........then please just don't even try to say anything and turn around a walk away.

I cannot control a WW.

But, you can control a great deal of what she does to you........once you learn how to use effective boundaries.

I will not allow her to shout or disrespect me again and in terms of a response-

Before you make that type of statement out loud to her, you have to know how you will stop her from doing it again. B/c you just said you could not control her. So, how do you enforce this boundary? You can run away from every thing she does to humiliate, belittle, and disrespect you. This is your W. You should know her well enough to know what would work best.

In the meantime, if you knew this would be as good as it ever gets, and she continued seeing OM.........would you still want to fight for the MR?

I am still not 100% because when I have left the house the Children get really emotional as the W says something to them like "Daddy's leaving us again" which I think is really cruel on them,

Yes, it is very cruel, and causes the children to feel insecure, abandoned, etc. But this is her choice of control methods. She is definitely the controller in this M. She stoops to low methods, even causing pain to her small children.

if I tried to remove them from the situation and take them with me, she would threaten to call the Police on me like she did last time. If it happens when the Children are not there- it is simple- I will tell her and then leave the house- but as described above what to do when the Children are there is a real catch 22

I am not qualified to give you the answers to these type of questions. IMHO, it required knowing where you stand legally. Since she has called to cops when you tried to take your own children.......you might go to the police office and ask who to speak to about it. It might, also, alert them that you are concerned at what lengths your W could take, and you want to protect your kids. Explain what she does with the kids, and prevents you leaving with them. Knowing the law where you live is very important, especially when you are living with a woman like you've described. You might research child services and what happens if they are ever called. I doubt it would be the most preferred route, but you can just read about it. As I've said previously, you don't want to turn this into a worse situation, but the more you tell us about her........the more it sounds like she has some emotional/mental issues. You have to protect your children, first.

So, continue the week working on those 3 short goals. Keep updating throughout the week.