Quote: I think it is important to not let this board become the 'soother' of anxious feelings.
Corri, that isn't what I'm asking for. I fully accept that I'm going to be very afraid as I move through this. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I WANT YOU TO CHALLENGE ME as appropriate. If what YOU say INCREASES my anxiety, I'll know we're on the right track. I'm going to need help challenging myself. I know that going in. I'm going to find it VERY uncomfortable to work at this. That's like the pain inherent in ANY kind of healing. It means the healing is happening. That's all good. I do NOT expect or hope for you to comfort me, which is good because I trust that's not what I'll get from you anyway. Challenge me. Ask me HARD questions about what I'm doing and why. That will help me to grow, I think. One thing I've been doing this morning, is imagining what shape my discussion with W might take this evening, and working out in my mind things I will want to say (and things I will NOT want to say). One thing I think I need to try to get across to her, is that this is NOT about me wanting to "get her to change" - it's not about me browbeating her into something she doesn't want to do, it's not about me hounding her for HER to do something. I won't be nagging her about reading the book, or about anything else. It's about ME challenging MYSELF to do what I think is the right thing to do. It's about ME challenging MYSELF to grow in new ways. I'll be saying that I'm about to begin making some changes in MYSELF, and some of these changes will change the way I relate to her, and reading the book with me will help HER to understand these changes better, but I'm not asking her permission to change, and I'm not going to "wait for her" to make changes on her own. I'll be saying that this book has given me some profound insights into the dynamics of marriage, and into what it means to explore one's potential, and having seen the possibilities, I feel compelled to pursue them. If I'm able to take that position and hold onto it, I think it will really freak her out initially. I'll also be saying to her that she can EXPECT that her anxiety level will increase, and that if she's willing to read the book with an open mind, I think she will find a great deal of help to cope with that. Anyway, just some thoughts...
In addition, Tim, I think you should hold off on showing the book to your wife or asking her to read it.
After all, the whole premise of the book is to become your own person and make these changes in YOURSELF. How can you accurately do that when you are anxiously awaiting her "response" to the book? Meaning her reaction, her thoughts, her desire to implement it, etc.
I remember going through this same thing when I read it. Trying to talk about it with my H and then I realized that ultimately this was about me, and not him. I told him about the book and then dropped it. If he is ever interested (which he will not be, I'm sure!) he can read it.
I think it is okay to want to discuss this with your wife, since it had such a profound impact on you, but I would hold off on making HER participation in the book or the changes a requirement. That violates Schnarchian principles!! LOL
I would keep your cool and tell her that you just wanted to share some things with her that have you all excited but that you are not expecting any reaction from her, other than listening and an open discussion. That's it.
Quote: How can you accurately do that when you are anxiously awaiting her "response" to the book?
No, HP, I really don't think that's what I'm after. I thought I was pretty clear in my last post that that is NOT what I'd be doing. I'm not making her participation a requirement at all. I don't need her permission to change - I've already begun the process. I'm just wanting to point her to a resource that I think might help HER to understand better what I'm going through. If she doesn't take advantage of it, that will be HER choice, but it won't change MY approach - it might just make this process a bit harder on HER. Ultimately, though, I do realize I can't help HER to deal with her demons, she'll have to do that on her own, just as I'm beginning to do. She has her next appointment with her C next Wednesday - I do think this might just change the dynamics of THAT somewhat...
Tim, it's good that you have learned that you need to set the stage. As Dave said we all have the right to discuss bothersome issues and have the right to expect our spouse to be receptive.
I have to wonder why you chose to tell her in the way you did that you wanted this discussion tonight. On the way to work and giving her maybe 12 hours to get her thoughts together? How long have you been contemplating bringing this up to her? Have you had a couple of days to ponder a discussion and now she only has a few short hours?
I think, in your wife's shoes I might have felt a little anxious also. I would have felt hit over the head with it and unprepared. I mean these are big issues!! That's quite the topic to want to discuss and then to tell her you want it that night.
Couples who are in counseling know they have that weekly appointment, that things are going to be discussed and that there is time to put thought into what route the discussion will take. Maybe if you ask her to commit to one or even two nights a week. Plan in advance with both of you having knowledge of what is coming and she won't feel overwhelmed by it.
Am I making sense or am I failing to understand something? Cathy
Quote: How long have you been contemplating bringing this up to her? Have you had a couple of days to ponder a discussion and now she only has a few short hours?
Actually, if there had been any time earlier in the week, I would have brought it up sooner. If I had thought that I could have brought it up this evening without having the evening arranged for me, I wouldn't have mentioned it to her this morning at all. The only thing I want to accomplish tonight is to give her a sense of what I have learned this week, and let her know that I've seen some possibilities I want to pursue. I want to invite her to participate with me in the process (she'll be a participant anyway). I don't expect her to understand initially. I expect her to feel like she's being dragged into this process kicking and screaming. In a way, I feel that way too, because now that I've read this book, I can't go back and "un-read" it, nor can I ignore it. I'm not going to be taking an adversarial stance, I'm not going to be "requiring" her to read the book, but if she's willing to, I'm going to be suggesting that we agree on tackling one or two chapters per week, and having a "standing appointment" to discuss it. I think we'll probably start with one chapter per week. I got through 6 chapters in the first afternoon/evening that I started, but I know she won't be up to that kind of pace, and it's more important at this point to go through it slowly, and understand it as we go. I'm just going to be saying to her that having read it once, I'm now going to be reading it again, and it would be really beneficial if she would read it with me.
I don't know, Tim. In your post, you were very clear that you want her to read this book with you, and you want to discuss it, etc.
Not that those are bad goals, but I think that some work on YOU first is the way to go. Getting her involved (or pressuring her to be involved in your own discovery and growth) are not going to accomplish much except to put her on the defensive. Kwim?
If I remember correctly (and I probably don't!) the idea should be that you are changing yourself for the better and she has a choice of either meeting that change, or staying where she is and knowing full well what the consequences are.
Only you know your true motives in asking her to read this book and opening a discussion on it. I was just making sure that you reach your goal of becoming a Great White.
Some of the things you said make sense and the idea of having a schedule makes sense (isn't this funny how we used to try to force a schedule for sex?..now it's simply to read a book).
Anyway, I don't think 12 hour advance notice of a discussion about a book is not too unfair. He made a stand and he's living with it.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Just so, Dave, just so. The longest journey begins with a single step. This is my first step in what I hope will be an adventurous journey of self-discovery and exploring potential. Schnarch himself makes the point, very early in the book, that ultimately one has to trust one's own sense of what is right, and act accordingly. There is no guarantee that you will do the right thing, but even mistakes sometimes lead to happy discoveries. The point is to do something. This is MY time to "sh!t or get off the pot"... BTW, I have a "sick" feeling in the pit of my stomach and my hands are shaking. I think I recognize this feeling as anxiety and fear. This is, I think, a Martha-Stewart "Good Thing"...
Quote: Anyway, I'm not sure what meaning I want to attach to these events, other than that I'm learning how to deal with myself, and be more accepting of her.
Tim - What a great story about the lunch, and your response. You deserve a pat on the back, not just for your response but for noticing your response so you can (hopefully) get in the habit of repeating it in the future. For me, that's the hardest part - I recognize something and I change it a few times, then I fall back into old habits. Sounds like PM is really working for you - yay!
