Quote: Anyway, we started off with just some light cuddling, and I was being very careful not to touch her too suggestively, but we WERE both naked, the door was closed and locked, and, well, you know me... I could get aroused with a 50-year-old woman rubbing up against me... oh, wait. that's what DID happen! Anyway, as things started to heat up, she actually grabbed onto me and started giving me a handjob! So I was also letting my hands roam more freely on her, and SHE was also getting turned on. COOL!! At one point, she was using her saliva to lubricate her hand, and she had to keep re-lubricating, so I just said "Why not try the AG?" So she got that out, and put some on...
Long story short, we ended up HS, and it wasn't EARTH SHATTERING, but it was VERY nice. I did have an O, but hardly any ejaculate, which is unusual for me, but I was pretty tired.
That is a description of what W and I ended up doing last night. I've decided to start a whole new thread, because the title of my last thread was very defeatist sounding, and since my whole outlook has changed, I decided it didn't fit. I basically "took the weekend off", and read almost non-stop - David Schnarch's Passionate Marriage. I've managed to read the first 9 chapters, and I'm on page 277 at the moment. Whew - what a weekend! Once I finish the "first read", I'll go back through it MUCH more slowly, and attempt to actually INTEGRATE it.
However, I think I may have found a way to begin. I believe I have made my first step towards increased differentiation. This evening, when W and I were both reading, and no kids around, I got up the nerve to ask her about her experience of last night. I wanted to see it through her eyes. Of course, I didn't really know how to broach the subject, so I didn't get very far with it, but it did give me a good feeling to try! At first, I basically said "I'm curious to know about your experience of last night - I want to know how it felt to you." I'm not yet confident enough to say something like "Please tell me what it meant to you". Anyway, her initial response was something like "It was fine" - she thought I was asking about MY performance. She was also assuming I was looking for validation by getting a reflection of myself from her. No, that wasn't it...
So I pressed her a LITTLE further, and asked her what she had been thinking and feeling when we began, and if she had intended for it to get as far as it did. She said she hadn't really been thinking or feeling much of anything... just wanting to cuddle a bit.
Not much, but it's a start. I think I will compose an email to her, to ask her about this in more detail. I'm also planning to try to get her to read this book, so that we can be in a similar "space" in regards to our understanding of what I'm attempting to do, but whether she reads it or not, I'm going to move ahead with this. I'm going to go for increased differentiation and see what happens. Just that little verbal exchange this evening really felt good! What an adventure this is!
I'm so excited for you! That's great news! You are right - I bet your W didn't understand what you were asking, even after you asked in a diff way. If you could get her to read the book with you, she would understand better. When you talk about reading it together - do you actually read it together and discuss it (you read out loud, then she reads out loud) or do you just share it and read it by yourselves? When my H and I started reading SSM, we read it aloud to each other. Not only did it keep us 'on the same page' so to speak, it gave us time alone together.
><> *singing* Reading Rainbow, Reading Rainbow! Oh...I bet that puts an age on me.
Quote: When my H and I started reading SSM, we read it aloud to each other. Not only did it keep us 'on the same page' so to speak, it gave us time alone together.
FF - you're cute! That sounds like an amazing idea, but no, my hope is that we'll read it "together but separately" - i.e. we each read Chapter 1, then talk about it. We both read at vastly different rates. I was able to blast through most of the book in a weekend - she would probably take two or three days to read one chapter. I also think she will need a LOT of help and discussion to understand and integrate this stuff. I'm not pretending I do, yet, but I think I'm getting the gist...
Just spoke with W on the phone - our daily lunchtime phone call. No big surprise... she's going to make it easy for me to find ways to use the stuff in this book! She's talking about joining Weight Watchers, as she wants to lose weight but has no idea how to go about it herself, and doesn't trust herself to figure it out on her own. At the same time, she's also heavily into trying to find some kind of menopause "magic bullet". To me, she seems to be going in many different directions at once, and thereby watering down her efforts. She's not prioritizing. She's also freaking out a bit about all the things coming up on the calendar - our family has some busy times ahead. So I got some practice at self-soothing. I refused to get infected by her anxiety. I'm also willing to wait a bit, as I've got some more reading and learning to do before I'm really ready to go with this. However, I now know that my first real self-differentiating move is likely to be over getting her to read this book with me. It'll be something along the lines of "Yes, I know that all the things you're working on are important to you, and you have a right to work on them, and you feel like you are doing these things for the good of our M, but this is important also, and it's important to me, and I'm entitled to ask for this. I won't nag you to do it, but if you're not willing to work on this with me, that's going to affect how I interpret your intentions."
I think that's about how it should sound, but I'm new at this... I may not have it right just yet...
(hmm... that sounds like I'm asking for validation from someone here... )
Well, I'm now up to page 350, and no longer quite as certain of how I'll proceed. For the moment, I'm content to continue reading and consider my options (I have OPTIONS!!). The farther you get in this book, the more challenging the process seems to become. The chapter I'm on now is called "Your Crucible Survival Guide", and it contains a whole list of "Do's" and "Don'ts", such as
Don't count on your partner to confront himself/herself in return
Stop focusing on what your partner is/isn't doing - focus on yourself
Stop trying to change your partner. Pressuring your partner actually reduces the pressure on both of you to change.
It also contains REALLY good suggestions for how to begin confronting yourself. I may decide to start there, and merely invite W to read the book if she wants to. Then see what happens. In many disciplines, we learn to change only one or two things at a time, so if something "works", you know which change it was that "worked". I'm sure there is wisdom in that. Wow... what a trip...
Page 395 now. I think it's quite likely that tomorrow evening I will finish this book (for the FIRST time) - exactly 5 days after I started it. My head is spinning. Once I finish it, I'll have some time to actually DO something. I'm already constructing my crucible, but my plans as to how to begin (exactly) keep changing. It'll be interesting to see what I actually DO...
Just in case anyone's wondering why I haven't started putting the PM concepts into practice yet, well, it's a matter of logistics. Of course, since last Saturday, I've been spending most of my time reading the book, and digesting its contents. I decided fairly early on that I wanted to read the whole book before actually doing anything, and I think that was a wise choice. Each evening as I read more, I understand more, and a beginning strategy that seemed to make sense just the day before then seems less so, or I can see a better one. Also, I want to have as many tools as possible at my disposal so I can move forward more easily if things don't go smoothly (and why would I expect them to?). In fact, if things go too smoothly, I'll assume I'm not implementing enough, or not confronting myself properly.
Another part of the logistical equation has to do with our schedules. Last night and again tonight, W has to bring DD20 to an exam. She waits there, because the trip is long enough that it wouldn't make sense to come home. They have to leave by 6:00 pm, so between getting home from work and then is a mad dash to get supper done and get them on their way. Last night they got home about 10:15, and tonight might be the same, so there's no time to get into anything. In order to put these things to the test, I kind of need W to be there. Tomorrow night also we have things going on. Friday night seems like the earliest possible time to begin.
However, the interesting thing for me is that I'm not agonizing over this, and I'm not feeling "under the gun" to get things going. I'm not feeling pressure. It's more like a feeling of freedom - freedom to explore different options and solutions, freedom to prepare, and a watchful alertness to what's going on inside me. I'm also noticing some interesting differences in my approach to things. Last week, I was doing a fair amount of things around the house to try to stroke W's LL's, and I was hoping for some quid-pro-quo. I now see I was being manipulative. This week, even though I've been VERY preoccupied with the book, I have also been doing some things around the house, but this time I have no agenda - I'm just doing certain things because they need doing, and because I know it'll make W feel good, but with no expectation of anything in return - just a gift from me to her. The fact that they make her feel good, makes me feel good. Nothing more.
Initially I thought it might be difficult to find something to start with in implementing these concepts, but now I think the difficulty will be in choosing. There are a LOT of ways I could start this.
At the moment, I'm thinking I'll keep things simple to start with. A lot will depend on whether she is willing to read the book with me. If she is, and if she can find it within her to begin reading fairly quickly, then that in itself will be a beginning. The hoped-for approach will be that we each read Chapter 1 and then discuss it, and also discuss certain aspects of our M in relation to it. This approach will really start to gain momentum when we get to the parts about using tools like "Hugging till relaxed".
If she won't (or can't) go with that approach, then a different (and more unilateral) approach will be indicated. Even though our "main issue" (as far as I'm concerned, at least) is over LM frequency, there are a lot of related issues that can feed into that. For instance, kissing. We used to be GREAT kissers. We would do it right in front of our parents (both sets!). We would do it in public, we would do it for hours. For a VERY long time now, we hardly do it at all, and even when we do, it is a PALE shadow of what it once was. Even during LM, kissing is pretty rare, and almost always very perfunctory. Just lately, it's been getting better - the goodbye and goodnight kisses are warmer and more open, but I think it's time we got back to using kissing as a form of connecting, and as a form of extended foreplay. So I'm thinking that this might be a good "first issue" to begin our quest (MY quest at first) for increased differentiation. She'll need to confront herself on her reasons for not wanting to, and I'll have to challenge myself to state my preference and stand up for myself. That sounds to me like a good opening, and it should have the added benefit of deepening our connection with each other.
That's great news! You are right - I bet your W didn't understand what you were asking, even after you asked in a diff way. If you could get her to read the book with you, she would understand better. When you talk about reading it together - do you actually read it together and discuss it (you read out loud, then she reads out loud) or do you just share it and read it by yourselves? When my H and I started reading SSM, we read it aloud to each other. Not only did it keep us 'on the same page' so to speak, it gave us time alone together.
