Fighting my way out of the dark - Part 8

[Holding]

Undoubtedly they've seen how their mother treats you and now believe that you will tolerate that from them as well. You need to shut that down hard. Despite the fact that they may show outward resistance, kids like discipline because it provides structure and stability. If you're consistent with your rules, they know they can count on you. The minute he gives you lip or attitude, he goes to his room. It doesn't matter if he has friends there, it doesn't matter if he's doing homework, if he gives you lip, he goes to his room immediately. If you're out of the house, you go home and he goes to his room.

The second S11 mouthed off to me last night, I sent him to his room. I let him out about 20 minutes later and it didn't happen again. I think I can get somewhere with S11.

It's hard to believe that kids want consistent rules, especially in the environment of D where they could potentially decide to live with the other parent. But I've heard this (the importance of consistent rules) from enough different sources to realize I have to stick to my guns on this. XW was never consistent on enforcing rules, and it would usually fall to me to be the bad guy and the enforcer.

My sister is D'ed, and her D16 was threatening to move in permanently with the XH because she wasn't happy with "mom's rules." My sister was freaked out at first, but like me she was told she needed to stick to her guns. Sure enough, D16 just didn't come home one day. But about a week later D16 slinked back into the house without a word. She hasn't done that again.

If it's a non-negotiable, then how can he refuse to attend? Tell us more about how this dynamic played out. Did he lock himself in his room? Did he go to church, leave you as if he was going to Sunday School and then run out the back door? What did he do to defy what you expected of him? How did you handle it and what consequences did you create?

Personally, I'm not sold on the necessity of Sunday school. XW actually signed up the kids back in August without asking me. S15 will need to complete 2 years in order to be confirmed in the Catholic Church, so that's why she's claiming she did it. I've been sticking to the schedule to present a unified front to S15.

Sunday School is later in the day after church. S15 was laying in his bed and refused to leave his room. This was 15 minutes before it was time to leave. I told him he needed to go and he still refused. He's having a bit of a crisis of faith and doesn't see the point. I said if he didn't go, I would take his phone away. Then he said, "Fine, take my phone". I took his phone for the rest of the evening. Short of physically shoving him out the front door, I don't think he would have gone. This is not new behavior for him. The kid has been forced to do things his whole life that he wasn't interested in (this was initiated 90% of the time by XW's plans).

After a cooling off period, S15 and I talked for 30 minutes about his faith. The kid just doesn't care about religion. He's very rational in his approach to life (I used to be this way before BD). I explained that if he doesn't go, he can't be confirmed, and he won't be able to get married in the Catholic Church. He doesn't seem to care.

If it comes down to a battle of wills, what's your plan to prevail?

Good question. I really struggle with this. S15 is VERY stubborn. Yeah, I know he's a teenager, but I believe he's really a special case, and his therapist agrees. Sometimes he won't eat, and I don't know if it's his ADHD meds or a form of protest. There have been times when he's literally balled himself up in his bed and refused to budge to protest something, yelling that he won't do it. He's done this on school days. He's missed a lot of school. Dealing with him in a normal M was tough, but in this D, it's even worse. I have to do it all myself, with no backup, and now I have to second guess myself at every step too.

Then he texted XW about how he was done with Sunday School, and she tried to come down on me by implying I'm making unilateral decisions and his faith is not important to me.

I hope you didn't reply to that at all and just ignored it.

That's a muscle you need to exercise -- you don't need to respond to silly accusations. You don't need to engage with your STBX at all. Start training her that you will only engage when she treats you with respect. Start training her that if she lobs accusations at you she will be repeatedly ignored.

This training must be consistent. You can't engage and defend yourself sometimes -- it must be never. That's the only way the behavior will change.

I did reply, but I did not address the accusations. I factually explained that I told him it was time to go, he still refused, and he was punished. I said she and I need to set up consistent consequences in both our houses for when he does not attend.

Not responding is something I've done in the past with her accusations and emotional "blurts" that have no real action on my part. I realize she's trying to get a rise out of me, and I won't give her that any more.

The trick is that she'll often mix snark, sarcasm, and accusations in with actual requests. Should I respond factually to the requests and ignore the other stuff? Or should I just ignore the whole message if there's anything offensive in it?

[Accuray]

Thanks for all the detail! To answer your last question first, if her message is mixed with snark and sarcasm I would just ignore the whole thing. If she presses you I would tell her if she wants to engage in a conversation with you she needs to be civil and respectful.

It's hard to believe that kids want consistent rules, especially in the environment of D where they could potentially decide to live with the other parent. But I've heard this (the importance of consistent rules) from enough different sources to realize I have to stick to my guns on this. XW was never consistent on enforcing rules, and it would usually fall to me to be the bad guy and the enforcer.

My friend has a son who is very difficult. They were trying to go out to a restaurant and he wanted to bring a big toy car. They told him he couldn't bring it, and he had a tantrum so ultimately they let him bring it along.

The next time they wanted to go to a restaurant, they told him not to bring the car, he had a tantrum, they tried to reason with him but he got even worse, so ultimately they relented.

If you step back from this situation, the boy does not enjoy throwing tantrums, and I'm sure he doesn't like being in conflict with his parents, but because they negotiate with him and relent to his tantrums, he's been taught that he can get what he wants that way, so now every week of his life involves conflict with his parents, temper tantrums etc.

Do you think he's happy living like that?

With my kids in that scenario, XW and I said "you're not bringing the toy the the restaurant". Our daughter had a tantrum and we sent her to her room and told her to come out when she was ready to go to the restaurant without the toy. That's how we responded to each tantrum and it only happened twice. After that, she knew that a tantrum and conflict with her parents would not get her what she wanted, it would only make her upset.

Since then, she never asked to bring a toy to the restaurant and there was no conflict over going out to dinner and no tantrums. She could enjoy going to the restaurant and not even think about bringing a toy.

Which one is the happier child? Fight the fight once, up front, and enjoy the peace forever after. Don't fight the fight again and again.

Your older son may be at the age where he can choose which parent to live with, but only if the two of you give him that choice. Ideally you'll agree to stick to the parenting schedule.

Another thing that may happen is that you'll have different rules at each house -- that is okay. Just because they don't have to do their dishes at mom's doesn't mean they can leave them in the sink at your house. It's okay for your house to have a different set of expectations. Kids will respond to how you treat them, that you love them and respect them, and provide them structure, they're not going to choose their household based on lax rules and no chores unless they're being treated badly in both places.

I assume if your son is difficult and missing school you're talking to his therapist about how best to handle it from a parenting perspective?

One of the nice things about divorce is if you don't feel Sunday School is necessary, you can have that discussion with XW and you don't have to reach a consensus. You can tell her that when he's at your house he doesn't need to go.

Obviously divorced parenting requires compromise so you want to choose your battles carefully, but that is an option that's available to you. You'll of course want to work that out with her before you involve S15.

Being a solo parent with no backup can be a challenge, but you don't need to second guess yourself, and the nice thing is that XW isn't going to intervene or contradict you. There is your house and your rules and they are non-negotiable.

I'm not saying to be a tyrant, you seem like a good father who truly enjoys his time with his boys. Talk to them, hug them once a day, support them in pursuing their dreams, but also be firm with your rules and make sure they know that they are non-negotiable.

There may be short term conflict while they get used to it, but there will be long term peace as a result.

Acc

[neffer]

Setting limits is also an act of love. Even if they fight against them, they feel safe inside those boundaries, no matter whatever teen rebelion feelings surge at that ages. Like Acc says: enjoy your children, you are a good father. They know it, even if they are saying the opposite. Remember when you were a teen...

[SH_]

Hello Holding.

I have glanced through your journey and I see some things that I identify with from the travels in my own journey.

I am pleased that you found the Stockdale Paradox an intrigueing concept. I would be interested to hear what you found interesting and what wisdom you may glean and put into practice.

You are receiving much sound advice for working with your children.
Be the rock that they need. Avoid letting your situation cloud your perceptions of decisions and actions that you should take...and above all seek outside perceptions so you do not perceive all that they do or feel is because of the separation and D.
Looking back i recall so much doom and gloom being preached about how children will be ruined simply because of a D...I encourage that you do not accept that as a foretold inevitable outcome...
Self fulfilling prophecies come when one accepts future telling...

I pray that you have the strength and wisdom to take each day and find peace and courage to make your future what you choose it to be. Gather wisdom from others that have traveled further downthe road, but always apply the wisdom in the manner that you feel confident about and learn from mistakes that you may make.


You have a tribe that can support you here. Lean on them until you can stand on your own.

Let me know if I can ever be of service for you as your push forward.

My prayers are with you and your family.
Be well.

[Holding]

I assume if your son is difficult and missing school you're talking to his therapist about how best to handle it from a parenting perspective?

I have talked to his therapist about him missing school. She says he has some social anxiety, but it seems to coincide a lot with when he has big things due and he hasn't done them, like he's afraid to face the consequences at school.

One of the nice things about divorce is if you don't feel Sunday School is necessary, you can have that discussion with XW and you don't have to reach a consensus. You can tell her that when he's at your house he doesn't need to go.

Obviously divorced parenting requires compromise so you want to choose your battles carefully, but that is an option that's available to you. You'll of course want to work that out with her before you involve S15.

I've spoken to several people on this, and a lot of them say S15 is at an age where he shouldn't be forced to go if he's not interested. My IC even said it may make things worse and cause resentment if he's forced.

Being a solo parent with no backup can be a challenge, but you don't need to second guess yourself, and the nice thing is that XW isn't going to intervene or contradict you. There is your house and your rules and they are non-negotiable.

I do like the freedom of making the rules as I see fit, but XW is trying to intervene with the messages she's sending, where she questions me, states that her agreement is needed (when it's really not), and how unacceptable everything is. This is one of the main boundaries I'm working on. I'm starting to see it's entirely mental - I just have to decide that her rants will not affect me any more.

I'm not saying to be a tyrant, you seem like a good father who truly enjoys his time with his boys. Talk to them, hug them once a day, support them in pursuing their dreams, but also be firm with your rules and make sure they know that they are non-negotiable.

Thanks! Good advice, Acc.

Setting limits is also an act of love. Even if they fight against them, they feel safe inside those boundaries, no matter whatever teen rebelion feelings surge at that ages.

You're right. I need to keep my eye on the future, when they'll be able to look back and see the love in what I'm doing. This is a long game.

Actually, it's funny how I can now see so much of life as a "long game". One of the silver linings of my sitch.

I am pleased that you found the Stockdale Paradox an intrigueing concept. I would be interested to hear what you found interesting and what wisdom you may glean and put into practice.

It's interesting that he was able to acknowledge his dire sitch, and still have a positive outlook. To me, that's very powerful. It's a complete act of will, to choose to be positive in the face of doom. It makes no rational sense, but it works. A lot of your advice seems to follow this approach. I hope to get there.

Let me know if I can ever be of service for you as your push forward.

Thanks for stopping by, SH. I appreciate it. Feel free to comment any time.

[Holding]

And a little update on the issue of boundaries:

XW sent me a message asking if I would be willing to permanently alter our agreed upon parenting schedule by switching which weeks we have (for example, if she would have had next week, it would go to me, and then we would resume alternating from there). Her issue is that I will get the 1st and 3rd weekends in the month, which doesn't work for her for some reason.

I thought about this and came to the conclusion that she was trying to fix a temporary problem (scout campouts? meeting with OM? traveling for work?) with a permanent solution. Also, her reason makes no sense in the long run if you look at a calendar.

I responded that I was not willing to make a permanent change to the schedule we agreed upon in mediation. But I was willing to trade weekends or whole weeks if there was a particular issue.

Her response: "I'm disappointed to hear that. I will keep that in mind the next time you ask to switch."

I did not respond. So now she is basically threatening me.

I was talking to a coworker about this, and she said this is a classic example of gaslighting. XW tried to make it seem like I was the one being unreasonable, when I clearly stated I was open to switching here and there if there were conflicts.

It's getting hard to see XW as anything other than a full blown narcissist. In her view, none of the rules apply to her, but she is all too happy to make up new rules that apply to me.

I get mad at myself for letting such a toxic person into my life. For having children with her, who are now saddled with the nature/nurture burden she's handed them. Then I realize I'm going to have to forgive myself for that eventually.

[artista]

she definitely could have been more gracious... i do not think you are being unreasonable in not wanting to do a big fat switch of the schedule you two agreed on in Mediation... you were gracious in offering to switch as needed... i doubt you will be asking her for favors in the near future, so i would not worry about that... but if you were of the spiteful ilk, she could have just cut off her nose to spite her face by threatening to not being open to switching with you should you ask for it... with that attitude, you could refuse to switch with her as needed... but i don't think you are of the spiteful ilk... you are reasonable... keep on keepin-on, Holding...

--artista

p.s.--oh the irony of her being "disappointed..."

[Accuray]

I thought about this and came to the conclusion that she was trying to fix a temporary problem (scout campouts? meeting with OM? traveling for work?) with a permanent solution. Also, her reason makes no sense in the long run if you look at a calendar.

I agree with your work friend and with Arista but for your benefit I’ll also say this — your conclusions about XW’s motivations are pure speculation on your part — she could have a very valid reason for wanting a long term change.

The better question for you to answer is “do you really care about the proposed change?” Does it mess up your plans or your life?

Now that you’re separated one change to get used to is that you don’t have to explain yourselves to each other. XW’s reason for requesting the switch is not your business any longer, she doesn’t owe you an explanation and her reasoning doesn’t have to clear a “validity hurdle” with you.

By the same token, you don’t have to explain or justify your refusal to XW — that’s your business.

I’ve been divorced parenting for four years now and I can tell you that being willing to be flexible and cover each other is an amazing asset. Things will come up — work trips, illnesses, vacation opportunities, dating opportunities, and if you have established mutual flexibility in your willingness to change things up both of you and the boys will benefit in the long run.

Just something to think about.

Acc

[EastTN]

Her issue is that I will get the 1st and 3rd weekends in the month, which doesn't work for her for some reason.

Also, her reason makes no sense in the long run if you look at a calendar.

Yeah, as you note, within a couple of months you're going to have 2nd and 4th anyway. The calendar is a bitch.

[Accuray]

Parenting schedules follow common patterns. I know a few divorced parents who started dating people whose parenting schedules were exactly opposite of each other -- meaning someone always had their kids so they had zero alone time. If both people have inflexibility with their ex's, that new relationship has no chance. Just something to think about.

Acc