WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[hoosjim]

Sandi-- Part 2 (actually part 3 if you also consider my earlier post about male dominance) of my response to you:

So......lots of inner work needed for her. One step at a time. The healing in the intimacy (if I am saying this correctly) will probably be the last issue to fully accomplish.....if that was the issue behind her waywardness. However, if there was something deeper, or you have no clue.....or maybe she doesn't either, the therapist will have to get her to dig it out before she can receive healing. FWIW, there is power in prayer. ((hugs)

And who knows what all the inner issues are with her. She grants that lack of communication and internalizing (and not just with me but with everyone) is something with which she has always struggled. We never had that level of intimacy characterized by full sharing and vulnerability regarding fears and weaknesses and problems... she because that was just the way she was raised and the way everyone in her family dealt with problems and me because I was afraid or never trusted her enough to let on that I had fears or weaknesses or the like. (We both rated "communication" a 4 out of seven, and both admitted that we held things back from each other sometimes for fear of how the other one would react. MC said, of course, that this was something we had to work on, and thought that some of the more emotional conversation we had in session, like about her and my feelings about the A, was a good start). There's also the heavy Catholic guilt thing with her, and the sexually repressed family (even kissing was frowned upon) which ran very counter to her inner nature of being or at least wanting to be a very demonstrative person physically and having a strong sex drive. And also the expectations of everyone on her that she was the "good girl" and the "good daughter" and how she feels she disappointed everyone on the one hand and how sometimes OTOH she felt she wanted to rebel. And then her body image. And probably a host of other things I don't even know about. She definitely has issues and definitely needs IC. I don't see how "we" manage to work things out if she doesn't go through that.

Speaking of prayer, reminds me that she has a spiritual problem. Which, of course, goes hand in hand with waywardness. She can't have much spiritual fellowship with God, if she is rebelling against one of His divine institutions, such as M. Plus, there may be something more that she's never resolved......with God. Once she's straight with Him, her soul will feel at peace and she will be in a better place to deal with whatever is needed.

Yes, she does. I won't belabor it here since it's already a known factor. She is a person of faith, but conflicted and guilt-ridden. A big factor with her is an abortion she underwent in college... a result of her first sexual encounter... and the guilt she long felt, and still feels, from that. She says she believes she is forgiven for that-- she did go to confession and all that-- but I have my doubts. It's constantly preached about in the catholic church, obviously, and a constant reminder to her. So, yeah... another issue.

I'm guessing that was before the A began, calling you during the work day was usual behavior for her?

In the distant past, yeah. But by the time the A rolled around, we had not been talking during the work day for a fairly long time. The occasional (certainly not even daily) call about something kid-related, but other than that, nothing. When we first started this "reconciling" (if that is indeed what we are doing), she was calling constantly-- she'd always call during her lunch break, and then usually at least two or three other times. Since the really cold weather started, she doesn't get to go outside at lunch, and with her work switchover, she just flat doesn't get lunch breaks period most days, so she is calling now a little less than she did in, say, October/November, but still at least a couple times a day, and I am trying to get in at least one call to her, either during her commute (A lot of her affair convos with OM were during commute time) or during the workday, but it is hard to connect from my end because the nature of her job she has to talk to people so often and often either cant pick up or then when she does has to hang up right away... so usually I leave the calling to her, figuring she will call when she has a few minutes to talk... W'eve actually joked about this.

As long as she is putting forth just a little effort of some kind, then you show her your effort, as well.

And... she does appear to be putting forth at least a little effort. But it's her mindset I worry about. And she keeps saying things here and there, and maybe I am just overanalyzing and I AM too focused on the A but... I get nervous. We've had so many starts and stops before.

In case anyone wonders, you were asking about how the picture would look, and these were things I was trying to describe. Since we had approached this subject a while back, you posted about not really engaging with non-sexual touching......and the reason I found your quote above interesting was when you said she had plenty of opportunities where it would be natural but she doesn't reach out to touch you. This period you both are going through (if she has not back slid, and she is being genuine) is kind of like a game of chicken. You both hold back, waiting on the other one to make the first move. You both have made the simple act of touching each other seem as awkward as having sex in the town square in broad daylight. In other words, you are watching her like a hawk. At least, in my mind's eye it appears as such. Maybe part of that is b/c I told you not to rush her and to not get all feely-touchy b/c it would put too much pressure on her at first. In fact, I'm pretty sure I talked about not initiating any sexual type of touching. I usually give that advice b/c men want to seal the deal by having sex, and that causes many of them to push to have sex too soon. But like a lot of other H's, you seemed to have become so aware of every little move (or lack thereof) and it's killing every possibility to just act normally.

Just FWIW I really think that this is amazingly on point and really captures the sitch perfectly... Assuming that my W is in fact being genuine in her efforts at the moment.

The determining line about being in piecing or in limbo is the answer to the following question. ”Did she just end her contact with OM, and is currently under the same roof with her H, ………or did she show true remorse & humility, and is cooperating in actively working to do whatever her H and MR needs to heal and be happy again?”

And this is where I am kind of uncertain. I believe she did show true remorse and humility, and she has continued to show remorse (she continues to say "this is on me, I did this, I own this, etc.) but... every now and then she says something like she said in session and I say to myself "okay, now what was that?" She is defensive by nature... very defensive, actually, which comes from the guilt angle, but I am not sure that that fully explains everythin. Due to the tech difficulties, We did not get to fully explore in session what I was trying to say that sparked that whole discussion, and I feel like I need to tell her what I meant, which was not to keep beating her up and slapping her around for having the affair (which is how she appeared to take it) but to convey to her that the more transparent she can be, like calling me, not being late, sharing her phone (and I noticed the other day when she handed me her phone to do something that it still had a lock on it-- she unlocked it for me but that lock is still activated), that the easier trust gets for me, and that that is not about beating her up for the past but rather about rebuilding our relationship and building intimacy going forward. MC kind of touched on those points but I don't think that that's what W got from me.

I think you were too easy and didn't require the kind of transparency from her to earn back your trust. Therefore, she hasn't had to, has she? Am I forgetting something? When I tried to tell you how important it was for both of you, I got the idea you were afraid to push the transparency with her......b/c at that time, you were too afraid of losing your M. Anyway, I think that's one reason that you have felt the insecurity and uneasiness, especially when she would not wear her ring, and some of her questionable actions.

I think you are right. She has done some things, she would say a lot of things-- limiting her time out with GFs, always calling when she is late, letting me track her phone, sharing her phone with me frequently, getting rid of all her A-related FB contacts... but I never required her to submit to random phone checks, or to give me her phone password. (She did give it to me very early on, sort of haphazardly and a bit defensively: "What? I think its like "___________"", but I think she thinks I have forgotten it, and I have not let on that I know it. She has left her phone "laying around"-- I almost think she does this on purpose-- a few times and I have checked it and found nothing suspicious, so if she is doing anything on the phone, and I have looked VERY deeply into app history and everything, she is really covering her tracks. (There is a very, very old text string from late 2016 between her and OM, very close to the bottom of her text history (Way, WAY down there) that she may not know about... but which is still on the phone. It was from when they were just being friendly and when things were starting to cross the line but before they got steamy. IDK, if I ever have the occasion to be looking over the phone WITH her again, I might bring it up, after which I am sure she will delete it just like she did the FB messenger thread).

At any rate, yeah. I should've established clearer and definitive transparency standards. But I didn't. To her credit, she has really tried to keep me apprised of her whereabouts and so forth. I know she's had slip ups and know she has had drive by's, here and there, of OM's hangouts, though the last one I know of for certain was in November (or December, if you want to count the trip to the store she told me about that I voiced concerns about but she went anyway and then told me she'd gone.) But... yes it would make things easier, though, even then, it wouldn't change some of the things she's said that give me pause.

Ugh.