WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[hoosjim]

Sandi2, a bit more color and some response to you very long and well thought out post (and I am very sorry to hear about your carpal tunnel... ... I have had bad elbow and wrist tendonitis in the past, and know how painful, and painfully frustrating, it can be, especially when you have to spend a lot of time on the computer). Anyhoo....

Had our second MC session in two weeks. It was... discouraging. Maybe it shouldn't have been but my take-away was not good. W still seems to be in basically the same place she has been for a while... Maybe IC (which she agreed to try on our intensive visit on 2/21) will help.

First off, I just want to ask you if you feel she is being genuine in the things she told you......like proceeding with working on the MR?

MC asked us a series of Q's, and told us each to rate how "Things were" over the past two weeks in each of 7 areas on a scale of 1 to 7. Some of them were unsurprising... we both gave "intimacy" a "2". Others more surprising: She (W)rated "How committed are you to the Marriage for the Long Term" (qualified by the MC to be "in the 'right now' and referring to 'this process'--the counseling and effort to try to save the marriage) a "seven", while I rated it a "5". W said that that qualification by MC drove her answer, and that, even though she did not know what was going to happen with us, that, in the present, she was completely committed to this process we were engaged in. As to my rating of 5, she thought I would rate it higher since I have said in the past I am fully committed to this. My response was that there are "things that make me go 'hmmmm...'" from time to time that affect my confidence and trust in her, like when she was out very late a couple of weeks back (though yes, she did keep calling) and missed her exit to end up out near OM's bar (yes, she told me), or when I find out or suspect that she hasn't been completely honest with me about events or aspects of the A with OM. This provoked a fairly emotional response from her, with her eyes tearing up the whole time. And I know nuance is important here, so I am going to try to remember as closely as I can what she said, but it was something like--

W: "Here we are doing this, and sometimes it seems like we are moving forward, but then other times I feel like we are stuck on this thing that I did, which was really bad and I know it was really bad and I own that, but I feel like sometimes that's the ONLY thing we are worried about or working on here, when there was a whole lot wrong with us before that, and I was done and ready to walk out. It makes me angry/irritated because it seems like it took THIS to get you to want to work on things, when before you seemed just perfectly happy to let me go. Maybe I should have really walked out earlier, and we should have been doing this (counseling) a long time ago, but it bothers me that it took me becoming so lonely and desperate that I was in a place where I could do that (the affair) before you decided you wanted to try to fix things. And I know I should have tried to do something sooner, too, so that's on me, but... sometimes it seems like ALL the focus is on me and this thing I did when that is just part of what is going on with us. And I get angry that I didn't do something sooner, that we weren't working on this sooner, that I didn't do something that would have kept me from doing things and hurting you (hoosjim) and me, and... whoever else [implication OM]"

My response to her was somewhat generic-- I didn't really start getting ticked off about it (which I am now) until I started thinking about it more later. My response at the time was basically that "We're working on all of this, I am not discounting you're pain and what you went through and I know that that is very real and that our relationship prior to the A was not a good one and that those are all things we need to and ARE addressing here... but we can't just ignore the A, either."

MC's response to her was "Yes, it was just 'one thing', and, yes, it was just the culmination of a damaged relationship between the two of you, BUT it was the kind of the climactic thing and a particularly traumatic and harmful thing."

Since the session, though, the more I think about it I'm like "really? Isn't this just a half step removed from her trotting out the things I did as some sort of excuse for the A?" I mean, she didn't exactly say that, but the more I think about it the more I think it's close enough for me to be concerned about, and to be concerned about where her head is.

FWIW, she also allowed, when I point blank asked her about "putting the A and the OM behind her" that: "Do I sometimes think about him, and his kids, and how they're doing? Yes... but I'm not seeing him and im not contacting him. And do I sometimes think about the good times we had together... that even we all had together, you, me and him? Yes. And it makes me sad that that friendship is gone for you... though it has made me happy for you these past few months that you have reconnected with so many of your old friends."

None of this, I should note, is anything I find particularly comforting.

However, the lack of physical touching each other seems to be the elephant in the room. As with most LBS’s, you want the physical affection and the sexual intimacy. Those desires are normal, but until there is effort placed in these extremely important areas….…how can you feel the MR is complete/whole? There is a huge gap between the two of you, and until someone starts moving in closer, the hole will continue to exist.

Assuming for the sake of argument that her head is in a place where she could even be receptive to physical overtures, the above is dead spot on. We both rated "intimacy" at a "2" out of 7, and her take was that it still feels weird/awkward for her, and in moments when we are close physically or in a moment where it would be appropriate or likely that we would touch she sometimes still thinks to herself "okay, he's going to touch me now", though she does not find it "repelling" in any way (which she actually used to). She also says she has "noticed the past couple of weeks" that I have been touching her more... though, TBH, while this is true I have not been going overboard and have not been going "out of my way"... but have just been taking the opportunities when such touch seems like the natural thing to do. Passing in the hallway, when I have to reach over her for something in the kitchen or the like, when going through a doorway with her, etc. But... no indication from her that she is at all thawing out, at least to hear her words say it, though I will say that I have noticed a thaw in her actions over the past couple of months... a willingness to be touching me in bed, or when we are sitting together out. The more deliberate touches, however, are still mostly absent from her repertoire. She even explicitly said at one point in the MC this week that we are "in the friend zone", and "trying to get out of it".

My inclination tactically here is to just say "eff it" and be more "dominant male" than I have been with her, and, if she objects, she objects.... But the past couple of days since the session have left me stewing about both her attitude WRT the A, and about her reluctance in the physical realm-- after all it was she who originally said "lets just try to be in the moment and do what feels natural"-- Well, I am her H, and at the very least her friend... notwithstanding our past and given the type of person she is, I would definitely be expecting more warm/friendly touching on her part if she was trying to just be "in the moment." IDK.

If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.

I guess this is the big question, isn't it?

I don’t mean to confuse anyone here. Up until her recent conversation about commitment, I don’t think I have specifically mentioned your position in piecing. Mainly b/c things just looked “ify”. I was seeing things in her that concerned me, and until I hear more updates…….I don’t want to jump too far ahead. For some people, commitment means showing effort, but for others, it doesn’t. IMHO, you should see some immediate show of effort from her, if nothing else but to help your feelings. But, if she puts off seeing the MC/IC……then step back. If she’s all talk and no action, then something is still off with her. And look, it took me nearly two years before I felt as if I was “ready” to show some effort……..so I don’t want to sign you up for piecing too quickly, KWIM? I had a lot of stuff I was dealing with. And when I say “to show” effort, I mean that with a humble W there is (or should be), at first, an unseen work that is going on in her heart…….if she is being honest/real about saving her MR. If the work is being accomplished in her spirit, then outward effort will come more naturally for her. It’s when she holds back to that old wayward mindset that will prevent progress in her. So, the H has to exercise patient for a while, but I don’t think he should just “settle” for a limbo existence for the rest of their M together.

I have to admit to confusion here, myself. The issue of the rings even came up. I mentioned it obliquely, something like "you know, if things were better with us, if we were wearing rings, I wouldn't mind so much that_______ ..." To which she said "so with the rings again, you haven't worn yours in years... you lost it and it didn't even seem to bother you (admittedly true) and you never once talked about replacing it." She said she "took hers off in the kitchen one day when she was working with raw burger" and then thought to herself "I wonder if I would get any "bites"" by not having it on. She said the more she thought about it, and the way she felt, she didn't feel like she could wear the engagement ring at all, given its history (the diamond is a family heirloom on my side of the family) and what it meant to me, and after that she just kept them off. At that point mine had been off for over a year. She asked me why I wasn't wearing one and I said that I "had been asked about it" and I felt like even though I did not want the old relationship symbolized by those rings, that at least if I was committed to fixing our marriage that I should be wearing something as a sign to others. I asked her if I went out and bought one would she put hers back on what "it would look like" for her to want to put it back on. She was silent for a moment and then started to say something else and we were cut off suddenly from our Skype feed with MC, and the discussion never got finished as I scrambled to restart the connection and then we had to wrap it up. So... issue unresolved.

This is getting long, so I will put any further responses to your posts in a subsequent post.