It IS hard to implement. I've been trying to question my motives for everything I do around everybody to determine if it's an act of seeking soothing or validation so now I've realized that I'm not spontaneously giving her hugs and kisses. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this too. Thank goodness for Tim....he seems to have a good understanding of it.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
SD Diary, Thursday morning. I have just got up and am making the tea. I could start the day in one of three moods. Happy, OK or p!ssed off. Guess which one I am and all because of a fleeting second of typical LDW behaviour. This morning W got up, went to the bathroom and came back. On a wave of passion I gave her a lovely back rub and cuddle. She could do one of three things. Show pleasure by hugging my arm, do nothing or pull away. She did nothing so I feel OK and moved away. Just before I had to get up and on another wave of passion I just moved close to her, in contact but not doing anything. If she loves me she would respond favourably, say by moving towards me. If she is indifferent to me she would do nothing and if she does not love me she can move away. She chose (or it was an automatic response, which is worse) to move away from me showing me that she does not love me so that is why my day has started badly and she will be late getting her cup of tea because I am spending time posting here. I am tempted to email her my dissatisfaction over this sort of thing as she would get very cross if I try to discuss it with her. Does that count as a 180 - telling her what mistakes she makes rather than saying nothing and stewing over it.
SD Diary. Thursday morning about an hour later. When I went back upstairs she asked me why I was so long making the tea. I couldn't tell her I was posting our life story on the Internet on a sex bulletin board so I didn’t answer. Instead I asked her whether she did not like me cuddling her because I felt that she had rejected me. She said that she didn’t like being woken up (despite the fact that she had already been to the bathroom and the radio was on). I told her that I found it difficult to read her signs of love for me but I found it easy to read her rejections. I also mused that perhaps she could not read my physical touch and words as being “love” and that I only give her one tenth of the physical attention that I would like to give and most of the time I am holding myself back. I pointed out that we had been together over 20 years and we had another 40 years together to look forward to so was it so wrong of me to want to improve things? She made no significant reply but rushed off to the bathroom with a face like thunder saying she was upset. I remained composed. Later, as she left for work she came to me and gave me a better than usual peck so I was left feeling that I had done the right thing. SD
SD - Playing "She loves me, she loves me not" like that is only going to lead to frustration, as you found out. In that particular interaction, was there ANY actual reason for you to take her action so personally? I know I would not have asked this last week. However, given the time of day and circumstance, I would think there could be MANY reasons for whether she would press closer, do nothing or move away, most having nothing to do with accepting or rejecting YOU. Your second approach was a lot more direct and adult, but again, given the time of day (and your history together) it's hardly surprising she reacted as she did. Low-desire spouses don't LIKE being reminded that they're low-desire spouses. In particular, to them, the frequency of discussion is like the frequency of sex - they feel like we're always after them, whereas WE feel like we let things go for AGES. I know. Been there, done that.
How do I think you could've handled it? I'm not sure. I know I've learned to avoid anything important in the mornings, at least when just getting up.
SD, I was doing that pattern for a while...putting out the bait and monitoring the response. It led me to extreme anxiety. Every time you make a bid for emotional connection or bid for intimacy, make sure that you are first "holding on to yourself" and not expecting any particular outcome. If she ignores or rejects the bid, then that's a choice she has made and like tim said, it has nothing to do with you.
You won't change that ignore/rejection pattern by confronting her on it. I learned this the hard way. For the 3 weeks that I was making a stink over my W's ignored/rejected bids, I put her into a state of anxiety where every nice thing I did became a "test" for her. When I asked to "cuddle naked" with my W last night, her entire body squirmed like she was sick despite the fact that she said yes. Her coerced "yes" was a result of my "pestering" her over rejected bids. I had to tell her that "feeling rejected" is now an illegal emotion in AtlantaDave's world and the she has many options without the fear of reprisal. I also let her know that my "desire" for her isn't because I "need" anything...it's just desire.
I think I've finally gotten the essence of how this works. You start making bids from a position of "want"...not "need" with no fear of outcome. You then maintain your cool regardless of the situation. You then start to disclose the things you want from her like "I want to ML to you". NOW it's different. In the past it was automatic and mindless (not that that is right). There's a different context to her rejection in that you are asking from a position that shows that you "want" it but don't "need" it. It's really hard to explain this. I think one way to look at it is how we would be more inclined to give a couple dollars to someone who looked like us than we would a panhandler...we value the judgement of our equals..not the lesser. By asserting your self from a "higher level" than she is at, she will see start to see her rejection as "her issue". When she sees that her choices illicit "judgement" rather than "hurt feelings", then she's going to get very nervous and possibly seek professional help or just start trying harder.
In general, you don't want to "guilt" them into having desire...the 2 are mutually exclusive. Today, you showed her that you "took it personally" that she "did something bad to you". These are what my high school shrink called "thinking errors". My new shrink keeps yelling "it's not about you Dave" that my W's behavior is "hers" and I should just keep "holding on to myself". It's just that we are compulsive "fixers".
Regroup, read PM, relax.
Be Cool
-Dave
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, sorry, but several things are bothering me about what you've posted.
Quote: When I asked to "cuddle naked" with my W last night, her entire body squirmed like she was sick despite the fact that she said yes. Her coerced "yes" was a result of my "pestering" her over rejected bids.
Sounds to me like the yes was what was violating her integrity. She REALLY wanted to say NO. From my understanding, I would have taken that as a cue to have an open and non-confrontational discussion with her about WHY she wanted to say "no". It would have SEVERELY tested my ability to hold onto myself..
Quote: I had to tell her that "feeling rejected" is now an illegal emotion in AtlantaDave's world...
Maybe so, but I get the sense that you're "forbidding yourself" to feel that emotion instead of working THROUGH it for greater self-understanding...
Quote: You start making bids from a position of "want"...not "need" with no fear of outcome. You then maintain your cool regardless of the situation.
Again, maybe so, but there's a difference between self-soothing and holding onto yourself, versus denying your feelings and forcing yourself to stay cool.
I hope I'm way off base here... maybe it's just that this medium is so limited I can't pick up on the nuances...
Sounds to me like the yes was what was violating her integrity. She REALLY wanted to say NO. From my understanding, I would have taken that as a cue to have an open and non-confrontational discussion with her about WHY she wanted to say "no". It would have SEVERELY tested my ability to hold onto myself..
Good point. It took everything I had just to ask her. Actually I might have over-dramatized this but it still made for a good example of how to handle the situation according to PM. She only "tensed" a little which was what led me to offer her some "outs". But opening the discussion would have probably been better because it would have been an "uncomfortable" moment in front of the TV instead of in the bed. Right-e-o tim. I should have handled it differently. I guess there was an underlying fear. Man this will be tough.
Quote:
Again, maybe so, but there's a difference between self-soothing and holding onto yourself, versus denying your feelings and forcing yourself to stay cool.
Again, you are correct but it's a fuzzy line. This balance is the hardest thing I've yet to figure out. I now recognize some of the emotions as being byproducts of my past etc. so I'm hesitant to "feel" them when I'm not to certain how valid they are. This is a tough one. I might start keeping a personal journal to share with C in hopes of understanding it better.
Thanks. Keep it coming.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Guys Guys Guys, I'm not really interested in all this psychobabble bs. I just want to wake up in the morning and if I feel horny I want to be able to communicate that to my W and for her to appreciate it and respond positively. Similarly if she were ever to wake up horny I want to think that she would convey that to me so I can bask in the sheer glory and delight of feeling loved. Is that too much to ask. Why do we have to read these complicated books that quite frankly I don't understand then jump through hoops in the hope that LDW becomes HDW before we're in our deathbeds. SD - frustrated and feeling like standing naked infront of W holding a blow up doll and asking "Where's the bicycle pump dear".
Quote: I just want to wake up in the morning and if I feel horny I want to be able to communicate that to my W and for her to appreciate it and respond positively. Similarly if she were ever to wake up horny I want to think that she would convey that to me so I can bask in the sheer glory and delight of feeling loved. Is that too much to ask.
No, that's not too much to ask, if the emotional connection and intimacy are there. It's GETTING to the EC and intimacy that's the difficulty.
Quote: Why do we have to read these complicated books that quite frankly I don't understand ...
So we can understand the PROCESS of getting to the EC and intimacy.
Quote: ...then jump through hoops in the hope that LDW becomes HDW before we're in our deathbeds.
It's not about jumping through hoops. It's about self-discovery and exploring your potential. It's also about understanding Marriage as a people-growing process, and how to "use" your "marital difficulties" to further growth, emotional connection, and intimacy with your partner.
