Thanks for taking the time to lend your advice, I also came across your's and zelda thread about abuse and am in the middle of going through it - great resource!
as far as I can I give my view and stay away from advice. As someone further down the road then I want to make others more aware. Abuse is an important element and a resource is important. In some sitches abuse isn't core in others it appears to be. I think your sitch is one of those.
I'm going to respond/ask some more questions about your post, but for now a lot has transpired in the last 2 days and I want to journal it while it is fresh in the mind.
Yesterday, the W ask me if there is anything I want to talk about, after talking for more than 45 minutes little was resolved, much of the convo mirrored the one that transpired the night before. When I tried to explain my feelings on the lack of remorse for the false police reports and the TRO her response was that she was justified and that I was lucky thats as far as it went.
Now you know and can never unknow. An illegal act, one which to most of us is reprehensible and it's ok in her eyes. This is a behaviour that could repeat and be justified by W. What else could she justify?
She did not elaborate at the moment, nor did ask that she elaborate at the time. We ended the convo w/ somewhat of an agreement that communication needed to happen and that if either of us have a feeling/ issue it is worth mentioning and should be received by the other... I did not feel she was fully on board w/ this notion and she stopped the convo by saying she had to leave, I asked where she was going, she said yoga class and then work.
She disengaged.
Later that night she got off work, called and talked (non R talk) for close to the entire 30 min. it takes her to get home. When she got home she kissed me, pretty much acted as normal, I was not cold but did not initiate any affection towards her.
She normalised.
Today I asked her:
M:Can you elaborate what you meant when you said "Your lucky I only did the TRO" W: My bothers wanted to come after you. (they have rap sheets that include murder/attempted murder and so on)
This is very frightening stuff on face value alone. This is a family who will do the illegal and immoral as an every day thing. And W is casual about it. Normalised. Gave me the chills, and triggered as I have been at this point too. It's serious, very serious.
M: That does not surprise me, do me a favor... tell them to name a time and a place. You see, I do not fear them and I'm pretty sure you know that. What does concern me false police reports/TRO and your lack of remorse for them.
My thoughts too. However going head to head and issuing challenges to those who could seriously hurt you is dangerous and unnecessary.
These guys have been this way as the norm since childhood and you can't compete with that. Do you really want your children brought up in this family? Be safe for your kids.
The G told me that he would be better off if I were dead and he would make sure no one knew. This isn't what a loving partner does or says and it is based on making you heal by fear. This type of convo is haunting and sticks with you. You may need IC to put it into context as soon as.
W: F that, I already told I'm not going there. M: Well that is a problem and I do not see how we are going to go forward when you are going to take that stance. So heres what I suggest, your lease is not up for another 4 days, keep your apartment and move back into it. I know you are in financial trouble and can't afford to do so, I'll pay to set you up again. Its not what I want, but I do not see any other options at this point.
Absolutely and I think well done.
W: You backed me into a corner, I had to do the TRO, you were going to frame me for abandonment of my kids, you know me and my upbringing, you back me into a corner and I'll strike.
So she would do it again without hesitation.
M: I never took any steps to get between you and the kids or try to frame you for abandonment. W: You told me you took pictures of the house after I moved all my stuff out, I know you were going to use those to try and frame me for abandonment. M: Ok, I will clarify this AGAIN, when did you take 100% of your stuff out of the house? The day you tried to take the kids. I called the lawyer to get advice on the kids, when the lawyer heard that you 100% moved your stuff out he advised me to take the pictures. Why, because you had already called the police on me 3 times and for my own protection you needed to leave the house, and since you took all your stuff you voluntarily forfeited your residence in it. If you think back I told you all this when you moved back in the night before the TRO, I informed you about the pics to let you know I had the legal right to ask that you not come back till things cool down.
W is mind reading because this would be what she would do, she assumes its you too. Projecting. The earlier impact of your first words are getting diluted. Too much info on your L and D strategy.
Cards, chest, close any order.
W: Well that was my perception, you were going to frame me for abandonment.
She left, it's a fact. The G tried this one and said I threw him out. He tried to get an order to move back in.
This is where it definitely could have stopped the convo. Do you want to be right or at peace? The facts speak for themselves, she knows, you know and she absolutely is twisting in the wind.
The rest is point scoring on both of your parts. Seems typical marital argument.
M: You just nailed it, "PERCEPTION"! why did you have to rely on perception... because you refused to communicate. I tried my hardest to communicate with you, so much so that it was a fault. But what ever the case it was still only a perception, not a reality, not justified. W: Well my L warned me that what you were going to do. M: BS, you did not have a lawyer at that point. W: yes I did M: No you did not, I am certain of it, my L called YOU to inform you of the EX-Parte (emergency) hearing for the TRO. If you had a L, my L could not of legally contacted you. If you are going to claim someone put that in your head that would be your para legal friend gave you that bad advice, the same person that helped you prepare/submit the TRO. W: What does that matter, do you really want to go there, do you really want to bring my friends into it again, see where that gets you. M: Your friends played a big part in this, but you are right, it doesn't matter cause at the end of the day it was YOU who took these actions. W: This is so ridicules, it all boils down to sex, you did not get laid and decided to pick a fight, why did you not bring the TRO up another time, instead waited till you did not get laid.
All distraction and noise. And it's protocol I think re the L. L to L is protocol, but I am nit picking.
M: Ok, I'll say it again, Yes the other night I wanted to talk about sex, my stance on it at that point was that it was maybe something that we had to work up to and that I should be patient, I wanted to ask you what your feelings were. Did you still see me as a brother, is there anything I could do to help? Instead of talking like a functioning M couple you demeaned me, made it sound like I was the one that had the problem, connected it to the past - said you would not go backwards/discuss the past, and told me if I did so "I was going to ruin a good thing". That is how we got into this mess in the first place - lack of communication, an unwillingness/inability to address our issues. It reminded me of your stance prior to the TRO, and since you said you would not discuss any of our past, I wanted to let you know that would be a problem for me as I have yet to hear from you how wrong those actions were.
you both have views, but this is distracting from the TRO. W sidetracked you with a hot button. This is an MC style discussion. However MC with an abuser or a wayward just makes them cleverer about their tactics and gives them a way of justifying and triangulating.
W: Why are we doing this, we could be having a nice lunch out enjoying one another and the day.
Normalising and dismissing. Trying to distract you with future faking. Temptation awaits.
M: Do you really think I would be able to sit and enjoy my lunch/our time out together after to my surprise finding out the day before you don't care about how I feel about the TRO, thanks but I'll pass on that lunch date.
great, you stayed on track. The TRO is one thing but having no concern or remorse about it is quite another.
W: The whole thing was F'd up, I'll say I'm sorry for the the sitch as a whole, but I'm not going to sit here and say I am sorry for the TRO. M: What are you a politician now, that is not going to work for me. W: What, I said I am sorry.
At this point she reverses her tack she knows you have it nailed and you are nicely making your point. Excellent. She knows you aren't fooled considering her early stance. And sorry for the sitch is validating your concern a little. At this point she hasn't understood the TRO is a major barrier, that's because it isn't for her!
M: I need to know that you are truly remorseful for it, only then will I have the security of not having to worry that it is going to happen again.
Absolutely
W: It will not happen AGAIN!!!! I gotta go.
Normalising M: Where are you going? W: To go clean the apartment. (For final walkthrough)
Testing M: Are you kidding me, we are moving you back in there ASAP. (Wife gathering her work stuff to leave- she did not have to work for another 5 hours)
Normalising
W: I never would of moved back in if I knew how insecure you still are, instead of being a man and dealing w/ your issues, you are going to let them destroy this relationship.
Deflecting and trying to hit a sore spot as she did with the sex issue above.
M: Wrong, I stand here today more of a man than I ever was, there is nothing you can say to discount that. These last few months have been the most formative in my life, I have owned and addressed most of my issues, some are still a work in progress. I am confident that the issue at hand has nothing to do my deficits/issues, I am not wrong in what I am asking of you, I really think deep down you know that, better if you stopped here
and that is why you refuse to go to a MC, because you know what they will say about your actions.
you can't use MC as a threat to beat her up. MC won't work unless both want it to. It's not there to prove a point.
W: Fine I'll go, but you are going to have to find a way to make more money to pay for it.....
Well you got her to agree but resentfully going is that helpful?
Silence.... W: or maybe I'll have to get another job to pay for it............... What are we going to do if we go, take in a long list of all the things I've done wrong and demand apologies? M: I'm pretty sure you know that is not how it works, but yes it is going to require that we both own our part in this... what ever that may be. And that is the thing, I would do anything for this family - if that means going to MC and getting a new one torn then so be it, are you willing? W: Set it up M: Great, consider it done,
not sure this is helpful way at all. Your sitch you know best. I doubt MC is going to change her attitude on the TRO. It might encourage her to say it has, would that be genuine.
meanwhile I still think that its a good idea that we move you back into your apartment. W: Are you going to let me take x, y,& Z? M: Take it all! W: What about the mattresses? (When she moved out she bought new mattresses, so when she moved back in we discarded all the mattresses and replaced w/ the new ones). M: Take them, I told you I would help get you set back up. W: You realize you are backing me into a corner again, and you know what happens then... I strike! M: How are you backed into a corner, you have an apartment to go to, I said I would help you get set back up! Are you listening to yourself! I think you should just leave, go to a park, go on a hike, reflect on what has been said, maybe confront some of your demons. Silence, W still gathering work clothes things for the day before she leaves. M: So well start moving you back in tomorrow.
This part of the convo is excellent for both of you.
W: I don't know, I'm not going to give you an apology just because you demand it. M: I agree, I don't want lip service, it needs to be heart felt.... Heres the thing, as I asses the sitch, I see that not only are you not remorseful, you think I am crazy for expecting remorse. You are a far ways off from even approaching remorse. W: Like I said, I'm not going to say it because you demand it.
You nailed it. And she too is correct, she feels justified in her actions and without saying so could choose to do that again. Now you know. And so does she.
M: Yeah, well sounds like you got a lot to think about.
Unnecessary. Leave her room to leave.
She proceeds to walk out the door. M: goodbye, ILY
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My view is you may have just saved your sanity or even your life. From this point with W then you will walk on egg shells. Take the threats seriously, relay those thoughts to your L.
Stay safe. Your children need you.
I am going to check in.
Big hugs Clyde. This was a very tough thing to do and you did what you needed to do for you and your kids. That's becoming a man only a fool would leave.
You faced the truth. Now you know you can't unknow.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
