How a treehouse can cost you your marriage 2

[Ginger1]

She basically wants to sweep all the awful stuff she has done under the rug and pretend like it never happened. She's refusing to deal with her stuff.

I am sorry Clyde, but you'll end up exactly where you were if you don't face the issues together. You can't simply rug sweep after that transpired.

I am glad my ex didn't even try to come back. Because I know the only way he would was if he could rug sweep. And at that time in my life, I probably would have let that happen. He doesn't deal with issues. I rug swept at the beginning of our relationship and basically it all came up again, he was not a changed person, but I was so desperate to be with him.

She is pretty darn lucky after all she put you through you let her back in pretty much unconditionally. But really, I don't think that was the best idea.

[MoveFrwd]

She basically wants to sweep all the awful stuff she has done under the rug and pretend like it never happened. She's refusing to deal with her stuff.

Yes. Exactly this.

Why do you still treat HER like the prize? SHE should be treating YOU like the prize! Why are you willing to just 'let bygones be bygones'?

Fundamentally....what has changed between now and just before BD? How are you different? How is she different? How is the relationship different?

[Gordie]

Clyde,

She is treating you with such disrespect. I don’t have advice for you on how to interact, but hope more experienced voices chime in. Ginger is right that you can’t pretend this never happened.

[Vanilla]

You asked for my thoughts and at this point I am quite confused.

Some things don't make sense to me.

There are so many troubles and mixed messages.

Firstly I think your whole family is a pressure keg waiting to blow. Let me deal with an important issue which is very obvious to me. Please do not use your D13 to tell your wife she is behaving badly. This is extremely destructive to your child. And your children are the most important. CHILDREN COME FIRST.

Your W involved the police and made false accusations. This is extremely and I mean extreme behaviour. And without a full apology and atonement from W, which would include putting the record straight with the court and taking full responsibility is going to be a permanent damage to your M. It is wholly unacceptable.

Clearly forgiveness is not possible until W does atone.

Even if there is no OM this behaviour is wilful and wayward. It is almost impossible to resolve and the underlying anger will erupt. Quite rightly.

I see a very clear sweet cycle. And I smell a rat.

On the other hand, your life is way out of balance. I see no permanent change in it and it will cause you great physical damage as well as psychological damage. There are periods when work hours are long, we all do this in tough times. It is really damaging as a way of life.

Your W comes back when she is broke, wants no sexual connection with you? Wants everything on her Terms?

Yes, I know you have a hand in the demise of your M. I get it. I also get that you want W in your life.

I also see you have no life, and in due course your health will crack as I sense you are not looking after you!

There are at least 10 posters have commented on this, in very eloquent ways, with force. Yet you rationalise and excuse and deflect. Always contradicting when it isn't what you want to hear.

If you are hoping I will say differently then that's true.

I am.

I am saying ask W to move back out before its too late. My great concern is that you will lose your rag and then the police will be called. Next time will be different, you may lose access to your kids, your lIving and your home. That prospect looks high risk to me. Have you an L.

You do not have to forgive W for her actions. You know what she did and so do I. I am not fooled by it. It is a typical abuse pattern.

At this point I believe you are exceedingly vulnerable in almost every way I can think of. And being wayward isn't just about OM, it's about a lifestyle.

You have my thoughts.

V

[Clyde]

V,

Thanks for taking the time to lend your advice, I also came across your's and zelda thread about abuse and am in the middle of going through it - great resource!

I'm going to respond/ask some more questions about your post, but for now a lot has transpired in the last 2 days and I want to journal it while it is fresh in the mind.

Yesterday, the W ask me if there is anything I want to talk about, after talking for more than 45 minutes little was resolved, much of the convo mirrored the one that transpired the night before. When I tried to explain my feelings on the lack of remorse for the false police reports and the TRO her response was that she was justified and that I was lucky thats as far as it went. She did not elaborate at the moment, nor did ask that she elaborate at the time. We ended the convo w/ somewhat of an agreement that communication needed to happen and that if either of us have a feeling/ issue it is worth mentioning and should be received by the other... I did not feel she was fully on board w/ this notion and she stopped the convo by saying she had to leave, I asked where she was going, she said yoga class and then work.

Later that night she got off work, called and talked (non R talk) for close to the entire 30 min. it takes her to get home. When she got home she kissed me, pretty much acted as normal, I was not cold but did not initiate any affection towards her.

Today I asked her:

M:Can you elaborate what you meant when you said "Your lucky I only did the TRO"
W: My bothers wanted to come after you. (they have rap sheets that include murder/attempted murder and so on)
M: That does not surprise me, do me a favor... tell them to name a time and a place. You see, I do not fear them and I'm pretty sure you know that. What does concern me false police reports/TRO and your lack of remorse for them.
W: F that, I already told I'm not going there.
M: Well that is a problem and I do not see how we are going to go forward when you are going to take that stance. So heres what I suggest, your lease is not up for another 4 days, keep your apartment and move back into it. I know you are in financial trouble and can't afford to do so, I'll pay to set you up again. Its not what I want, but I do not see any other options at this point.
W: You backed me into a corner, I had to do the TRO, you were going to frame me for abandonment of my kids, you know me and my upbringing, you back me into a corner and I'll strike.
M: I never took any steps to get between you and the kids or try to frame you for abandonment.
W: You told me you took pictures of the house after I moved all my stuff out, I know you were going to use those to try and frame me for abandonment.
M: Ok, I will clarify this AGAIN, when did you take 100% of your stuff out of the house? The day you tried to take the kids. I called the lawyer to get advice on the kids, when the lawyer heard that you 100% moved your stuff out he advised me to take the pictures. Why, because you had already called the police on me 3 times and for my own protection you needed to leave the house, and since you took all your stuff you voluntarily forfeited your residence in it. If you think back I told you all this when you moved back in the night before the TRO, I informed you about the pics to let you know I had the legal right to ask that you not come back till things cool down.
W: Well that was my perception, you were going to frame me for abandonment.
M: You just nailed it, "PERCEPTION"! why did you have to rely on perception... because you refused to communicate. I tried my hardest to communicate with you, so much so that it was a fault. But what ever the case it was still only a perception, not a reality, not justified.
W: Well my L warned me that what you were going to do.
M: BS, you did not have a lawyer at that point.
W: yes I did
M: No you did not, I am certain of it, my L called YOU to inform you of the EX-Parte (emergency) hearing for the TRO. If you had a L, my L could not of legally contacted you. If you are going to claim someone put that in your head that would be your para legal friend gave you that bad advice, the same person that helped you prepare/submit the TRO.
W: What does that matter, do you really want to go there, do you really want to bring my friends into it again, see where that gets you.
M: Your friends played a big part in this, but you are right, it doesn't matter cause at the end of the day it was YOU who took these actions.
W: This is so ridicules, it all boils down to sex, you did not get laid and decided to pick a fight, why did you not bring the TRO up another time, instead waited till you did not get laid.
M: Ok, I'll say it again, Yes the other night I wanted to talk about sex, my stance on it at that point was that it was maybe something that we had to work up to and that I should be patient, I wanted to ask you what your feelings were. Did you still see me as a brother, is there anything I could do to help? Instead of talking like a functioning M couple you demeaned me, made it sound like I was the one that had the problem, connected it to the past - said you would not go backwards/discuss the past, and told me if I did so "I was going to ruin a good thing". That is how we got into this mess in the first place - lack of communication, an unwillingness/inability to address our issues. It reminded me of your stance prior to the TRO, and since you said you would not discuss any of our past, I wanted to let you know that would be a problem for me as I have yet to hear from you how wrong those actions were.
W: Why are we doing this, we could be having a nice lunch out enjoying one another and the day.
M: Do you really think I would be able to sit and enjoy my lunch/our time out together after to my surprise finding out the day before you don't care about how I feel about the TRO, thanks but I'll pass on that lunch date.
W: The whole thing was F'd up, I'll say I'm sorry for the the sitch as a whole, but I'm not going to sit here and say I am sorry for the TRO.
M: What are you a politician now, that is not going to work for me.
W: What, I said I am sorry.
M: I need to know that you are truly remorseful for it, only then will I have the security of not having to worry that it is going to happen again.
W: It will not happen AGAIN!!!! I gotta go.
M: Where are you going?
W: To go clean the apartment. (For final walkthrough)
M: Are you kidding me, we are moving you back in there ASAP.
(Wife gathering her work stuff to leave- she did not have to work for another 5 hours)
W: I never would of moved back in if I knew how insecure you still are, instead of being a man and dealing w/ your issues, you are going to let them destroy this relationship.
M: Wrong, I stand here today more of a man than I ever was, there is nothing you can say to discount that. These last few months have been the most formative in my life, I have owned and addressed most of my issues, some are still a work in progress. I am confident that the issue at hand has nothing to do my deficits/issues, I am not wrong in what I am asking of you, I really think deep down you know that, and that is why you refuse to go to a MC, because you know what they will say about your actions.
W: Fine I'll go, but you are going to have to find a way to make more money to pay for it.....
Silence....
W: or maybe I'll have to get another job to pay for it............... What are we going to do if we go, take in a long list of all the things I've done wrong and demand apologies?
M: I'm pretty sure you know that is not how it works, but yes it is going to require that we both own our part in this... what ever that may be. And that is the thing, I would do anything for this family - if that means going to MC and getting a new one torn then so be it, are you willing?
W: Set it up
M: Great, consider it done, meanwhile I still think that its a good idea that we move you back into your apartment.
W: Are you going to let me take x, y,& Z?
M: Take it all!
W: What about the mattresses? (When she moved out she bought new mattresses, so when she moved back in we discarded all the mattresses and replaced w/ the new ones).
M: Take them, I told you I would help get you set back up.
W: You realize you are backing me into a corner again, and you know what happens then... I strike!
M: How are you backed into a corner, you have an apartment to go to, I said I would help you get set back up! Are you listening to yourself! I think you should just leave, go to a park, go on a hike, reflect on what has been said, maybe confront some of your demons.
Silence, W still gathering work clothes things for the day before she leaves.
M: So well start moving you back in tomorrow.
W: I don't know, I'm not going to give you an apology just because you demand it.
M: I agree, I don't want lip service, it needs to be heart felt.... Heres the thing, as I asses the sitch, I see that not only are you not remorseful, you think I am crazy for expecting remorse. You are a far ways off from even approaching remorse.
W: Like I said, I'm not going to say it because you demand it.
M: Yeah, well sounds like you got a lot to think about.
She proceeds to walk out the door.
M: goodbye, ILY

[Vanilla]

There is a lot in this to read and digest.

I will come back to you, I need time to marinade.

My thoughts are more strongly along the original lines and I am less confused on my thinking. Your last post has clarified a great deal for me. I will be adding your postsearch to the thread. Those many years from now will benefit.

You may wish to visit Ancaire or Mustardseed sitch or Zelda herself. Actually mine is very like your own without kids but it's very drawn out and there are long quiet stretches in between but you will see the damage and confusion.

I am around to chat through some of this damaging stuff with you.

Know this, you may have failings, you may have been human and contributed, but you are not responsible for this crazy loco behaviour by W. This is awful, truly it is.

I will be around during this crucial time, keep posting. Shift is coming.

Be safe, if you are in any danger get help. DO not hesitate.

V

[Vanilla]

V,

Thanks for taking the time to lend your advice, I also came across your's and zelda thread about abuse and am in the middle of going through it - great resource!

as far as I can I give my view and stay away from advice. As someone further down the road then I want to make others more aware. Abuse is an important element and a resource is important. In some sitches abuse isn't core in others it appears to be. I think your sitch is one of those.


I'm going to respond/ask some more questions about your post, but for now a lot has transpired in the last 2 days and I want to journal it while it is fresh in the mind.

Yesterday, the W ask me if there is anything I want to talk about, after talking for more than 45 minutes little was resolved, much of the convo mirrored the one that transpired the night before. When I tried to explain my feelings on the lack of remorse for the false police reports and the TRO her response was that she was justified and that I was lucky thats as far as it went.

Now you know and can never unknow. An illegal act, one which to most of us is reprehensible and it's ok in her eyes. This is a behaviour that could repeat and be justified by W. What else could she justify?


She did not elaborate at the moment, nor did ask that she elaborate at the time. We ended the convo w/ somewhat of an agreement that communication needed to happen and that if either of us have a feeling/ issue it is worth mentioning and should be received by the other... I did not feel she was fully on board w/ this notion and she stopped the convo by saying she had to leave, I asked where she was going, she said yoga class and then work.

She disengaged.

Later that night she got off work, called and talked (non R talk) for close to the entire 30 min. it takes her to get home. When she got home she kissed me, pretty much acted as normal, I was not cold but did not initiate any affection towards her.

She normalised.

Today I asked her:

M:Can you elaborate what you meant when you said "Your lucky I only did the TRO"
W: My bothers wanted to come after you. (they have rap sheets that include murder/attempted murder and so on)

This is very frightening stuff on face value alone. This is a family who will do the illegal and immoral as an every day thing. And W is casual about it. Normalised.
Gave me the chills, and triggered as I have been at this point too. It's serious, very serious.

M: That does not surprise me, do me a favor... tell them to name a time and a place. You see, I do not fear them and I'm pretty sure you know that. What does concern me false police reports/TRO and your lack of remorse for them.

My thoughts too. However going head to head and issuing challenges to those who could seriously hurt you is dangerous and unnecessary.

These guys have been this way as the norm since childhood and you can't compete with that. Do you really want your children brought up in this family? Be safe for your kids.

The G told me that he would be better off if I were dead and he would make sure no one knew. This isn't what a loving partner does or says and it is based on making you heal by fear. This type of convo is haunting and sticks with you. You may need IC to put it into context as soon as.

W: F that, I already told I'm not going there.
M: Well that is a problem and I do not see how we are going to go forward when you are going to take that stance. So heres what I suggest, your lease is not up for another 4 days, keep your apartment and move back into it. I know you are in financial trouble and can't afford to do so, I'll pay to set you up again. Its not what I want, but I do not see any other options at this point.

Absolutely and I think well done.

W: You backed me into a corner, I had to do the TRO, you were going to frame me for abandonment of my kids, you know me and my upbringing, you back me into a corner and I'll strike.

So she would do it again without hesitation.

M: I never took any steps to get between you and the kids or try to frame you for abandonment.
W: You told me you took pictures of the house after I moved all my stuff out, I know you were going to use those to try and frame me for abandonment.
M: Ok, I will clarify this AGAIN, when did you take 100% of your stuff out of the house? The day you tried to take the kids. I called the lawyer to get advice on the kids, when the lawyer heard that you 100% moved your stuff out he advised me to take the pictures. Why, because you had already called the police on me 3 times and for my own protection you needed to leave the house, and since you took all your stuff you voluntarily forfeited your residence in it. If you think back I told you all this when you moved back in the night before the TRO, I informed you about the pics to let you know I had the legal right to ask that you not come back till things cool down.

W is mind reading because this would be what she would do, she assumes its you too. Projecting. The earlier impact of your first words are getting diluted. Too much info on your L and D strategy.

Cards, chest, close any order.

W: Well that was my perception, you were going to frame me for abandonment.

She left, it's a fact. The G tried this one and said I threw him out. He tried to get an order to move back in.

This is where it definitely could have stopped the convo. Do you want to be right or at peace? The facts speak for themselves, she knows, you know and she absolutely is twisting in the wind.

The rest is point scoring on both of your parts. Seems typical marital argument.

M: You just nailed it, "PERCEPTION"! why did you have to rely on perception... because you refused to communicate. I tried my hardest to communicate with you, so much so that it was a fault. But what ever the case it was still only a perception, not a reality, not justified.
W: Well my L warned me that what you were going to do.
M: BS, you did not have a lawyer at that point.
W: yes I did
M: No you did not, I am certain of it, my L called YOU to inform you of the EX-Parte (emergency) hearing for the TRO. If you had a L, my L could not of legally contacted you. If you are going to claim someone put that in your head that would be your para legal friend gave you that bad advice, the same person that helped you prepare/submit the TRO.
W: What does that matter, do you really want to go there, do you really want to bring my friends into it again, see where that gets you.
M: Your friends played a big part in this, but you are right, it doesn't matter cause at the end of the day it was YOU who took these actions.
W: This is so ridicules, it all boils down to sex, you did not get laid and decided to pick a fight, why did you not bring the TRO up another time, instead waited till you did not get laid.

All distraction and noise. And it's protocol I think re the L. L to L is protocol, but I am nit picking.

M: Ok, I'll say it again, Yes the other night I wanted to talk about sex, my stance on it at that point was that it was maybe something that we had to work up to and that I should be patient, I wanted to ask you what your feelings were. Did you still see me as a brother, is there anything I could do to help? Instead of talking like a functioning M couple you demeaned me, made it sound like I was the one that had the problem, connected it to the past - said you would not go backwards/discuss the past, and told me if I did so "I was going to ruin a good thing". That is how we got into this mess in the first place - lack of communication, an unwillingness/inability to address our issues. It reminded me of your stance prior to the TRO, and since you said you would not discuss any of our past, I wanted to let you know that would be a problem for me as I have yet to hear from you how wrong those actions were.

you both have views, but this is distracting from the TRO. W sidetracked you with a hot button. This is an MC style discussion. However MC with an abuser or a wayward just makes them cleverer about their tactics and gives them a way of justifying and triangulating.

W: Why are we doing this, we could be having a nice lunch out enjoying one another and the day.

Normalising and dismissing. Trying to distract you with future faking. Temptation awaits.

M: Do you really think I would be able to sit and enjoy my lunch/our time out together after to my surprise finding out the day before you don't care about how I feel about the TRO, thanks but I'll pass on that lunch date.

great, you stayed on track. The TRO is one thing but having no concern or remorse about it is quite another.

W: The whole thing was F'd up, I'll say I'm sorry for the the sitch as a whole, but I'm not going to sit here and say I am sorry for the TRO.
M: What are you a politician now, that is not going to work for me.
W: What, I said I am sorry.

At this point she reverses her tack she knows you have it nailed and you are nicely making your point.
Excellent. She knows you aren't fooled considering her early stance. And sorry for the sitch is validating your concern a little. At this point she hasn't understood the TRO is a major barrier, that's because it isn't for her!

M: I need to know that you are truly remorseful for it, only then will I have the security of not having to worry that it is going to happen again.

Absolutely

W: It will not happen AGAIN!!!! I gotta go.

Normalising
M: Where are you going?
W: To go clean the apartment. (For final walkthrough)

Testing
M: Are you kidding me, we are moving you back in there ASAP.
(Wife gathering her work stuff to leave- she did not have to work for another 5 hours)

Normalising

W: I never would of moved back in if I knew how insecure you still are, instead of being a man and dealing w/ your issues, you are going to let them destroy this relationship.

Deflecting and trying to hit a sore spot as she did with the sex issue above.

M: Wrong, I stand here today more of a man than I ever was, there is nothing you can say to discount that. These last few months have been the most formative in my life, I have owned and addressed most of my issues, some are still a work in progress. I am confident that the issue at hand has nothing to do my deficits/issues, I am not wrong in what I am asking of you, I really think deep down you know that,
better if you stopped here

and that is why you refuse to go to a MC, because you know what they will say about your actions.

you can't use MC as a threat to beat her up.
MC won't work unless both want it to. It's not there to prove a point.

W: Fine I'll go, but you are going to have to find a way to make more money to pay for it.....

Well you got her to agree but resentfully going is that helpful?

Silence....
W: or maybe I'll have to get another job to pay for it............... What are we going to do if we go, take in a long list of all the things I've done wrong and demand apologies?
M: I'm pretty sure you know that is not how it works, but yes it is going to require that we both own our part in this... what ever that may be. And that is the thing, I would do anything for this family - if that means going to MC and getting a new one torn then so be it, are you willing?
W: Set it up
M: Great, consider it done,

not sure this is helpful way at all. Your sitch you know best. I doubt MC is going to change her attitude on the TRO. It might encourage her to say it has, would that be genuine.

meanwhile I still think that its a good idea that we move you back into your apartment.
W: Are you going to let me take x, y,& Z?
M: Take it all!
W: What about the mattresses? (When she moved out she bought new mattresses, so when she moved back in we discarded all the mattresses and replaced w/ the new ones).
M: Take them, I told you I would help get you set back up.
W: You realize you are backing me into a corner again, and you know what happens then... I strike!
M: How are you backed into a corner, you have an apartment to go to, I said I would help you get set back up! Are you listening to yourself! I think you should just leave, go to a park, go on a hike, reflect on what has been said, maybe confront some of your demons.
Silence, W still gathering work clothes things for the day before she leaves.
M: So well start moving you back in tomorrow.

This part of the convo is excellent for both of you.

W: I don't know, I'm not going to give you an apology just because you demand it.
M: I agree, I don't want lip service, it needs to be heart felt.... Heres the thing, as I asses the sitch, I see that not only are you not remorseful, you think I am crazy for expecting remorse. You are a far ways off from even approaching remorse.
W: Like I said, I'm not going to say it because you demand it.

You nailed it. And she too is correct, she feels justified in her actions and without saying so could choose to do that again. Now you know. And so does she.

M: Yeah, well sounds like you got a lot to think about.

Unnecessary. Leave her room to leave.

She proceeds to walk out the door.
M: goodbye, ILY

--------------------------

My view is you may have just saved your sanity or even your life. From this point with W then you will walk on egg shells.
Take the threats seriously, relay those thoughts to your L.

Stay safe. Your children need you.

I am going to check in.

Big hugs Clyde. This was a very tough thing to do and you did what you needed to do for you and your kids. That's becoming a man only a fool would leave.


You faced the truth. Now you know you can't unknow.

V

[Maybell]

I’m so glad you spoke up for yourself. If you don’t want your kids in that situation you can’t let them think it’s acceptable by letting it carry on.

I know you love her and it’s hard. But it gets better. You and your children deserve better.

Best to you.

[Clyde]

Hi V,

Thanks again, your views have been very insightful and spot on as I reanalyze my sitch. When you mentioned what The G told you about being better off dead it really made me feel for you and realize how significant what you are doing just is... It can't be easy to re-live those events.

Since the last convo (the one I posted) w/ the W little happened until today. She made no mention of the sitch, was pretty cold for the most part. I was surprised to see that she did not remove her ring and that she is still sleeping in the Mstr bed w/ me, (those were the first things to stop after initial BD. She made pancakes yesterday, S6 asked why she made so many, she said because we got...(named everybody in the house excluding me). I really think she expects me to pursue as I did during initial BD. I have made no mention of it, rather gave her space to digest the sitch and see I am serious in my stance.

This a.m. kicked off close to a 5 hour convo... I will summarize as much of it was painfully repetitive... why I allowed it to go on so long, I don't know - I went against the solid advice I have received here.

W: So we need to talk, I'm nearing the deadline for my apartment.
M: Sure, I'm all ears, do you have any new thoughts about the sitch?
W: I think we jumped into this too early.
M: I agree, so now that we are here what now?
W: I kinda think I should move back to my apartment.
M: It's probably for the best.
W: I worry about the kids, they are so much better off when we are together as a family, it's better for everyone, even me and you. I was severely depressed when I was living at my apartment, I missed my kids, I missed you, I missed the times we had.
M: Sorry to hear it was so rough for you, I could see that you were not happy. I agree about it being best for everyone, and I know that is a completely viable option, I told you what I am willing to do to make that possible, you are the one saying you can not do the necessary things that are crucial for our MR.
W: I will not live in the past....blah, blah, blah......
M: do you realize the TRO is the worst thing anyone has ever done to me in my life, and then to have it done by the person I love the most, I could not fathom doing that to you.
W: Look, I can't say sorry right now, I told you why... I will promise you that will not happen again. (I did sense some sincerity in this comment). I just have a real problem w/ how and why it was brought up.... (some more of the same convo hat transpired last time)
M: Look, I hope this is not taken the wrong way, I'm not saying you have issues or anything like that, but maybe it would help if you saw an IC, you mentioned you experienced depression at the apartment, you could also bounce some of the issues we are having off the IC and get another point of view.

At this point I sensed that she was feeling that me still engaging in the convo was me pursuing as she said something to the likes of "Meanwhile I still don't feel comfortable and should probably move back to the apartment". I agreed. S6 comes out into the yard and ask for lunch. We got up to go make lunch and she made a remark of "Well that got us nowhere!"

After lunch she said asked if we should continue the convo, I said sure - lets go back outside.

M: Look at this point I am at peace w/ the sitch, its not how I wanted it to go, but here we are. I don't know what else to say and don't know that discussing it anymore is going to help, kinda feel like we are just trying to prove who is right.

She went back into how she feels sex is to much of a priority for me... a bunch more of the same convo, what was different though, was this time she blatantly tried to use sex as leverage.

W: So do you really think if we went to MC and dragged up the past that would be best for home life? Are we going to come home after the MC sesh's and be all lovey dove on one another, think its going to be a good environment for the kids.
M: I already said it is not going to be easy, but I can tell that by your current view of it that its likely not going to be effective at this point. That being said, if you wanted to go with the intention of strengthening our MR, it would do just that.
W: You realize that if we were to go that would be a big set back, do you think I'm going to want to have sex w/ you, it would probably be a good six months before that happened. Do you think I want to have sex w/ you right now - no its going to be a while, I'm starting to have those feelings again, that I do not want to be intimate w/ you after all this.
M: Really six months? Were did you come up w/ that time line? You don't think I see what is going on here, you are using sex as a method to control, were is the intimacy in that. And as long as we are talking about control, you have been very controlling over the last year, I'm not going along w/ it anymore. (I wanted to say abusive but know that would of ignited her, last year our MC said her comments/actions were abusive, she went off the handle... little more was mentioned about it for two reasons - Her reaction to the comment, and my pride. I am a big strong man, admitting that I am taking abuse does not fall in line w/ that... perhaps if I insisted on addressing it back then it would not of metastasized in to what it is today.

As I rehash todays convo I have some mixed emotions.

She admitted to being depressed "at the apartment", at the time of BD and since I have wondered if she was not battling w/ this or some other psychological/hormonal issues. I feel bad for her, I have had some minor bouts with depression and know the effects it can have. Should I be more patient, soften my stance?

Last year our MC said she has severe Daddy issues, I never mentioned this as I feared that she might someday find these post. It was the comment about the Daddy issues along w/ labeling the abuse that I feel really shut her down to the idea of MC, I echoed the comment in the heat of the moment one night, it was severely damaging to the state of our M. Anyhow, the reason I bring it up now is this:

I truly believe this woman really loves me, (yes I had thought she lost that feeling during the TRO and through out the separation - heck, she came out and said it during BD). I feel that there is some block, maybe a sense of vulnerability, something that is getting in the way, from intimacy, communication, to remorse. Obviously the TRO/remorse matter is detrimental to our MR, we have severe communication issues, she has become abusive over the past 18 months (she was NEVER like that before), all that aside for a moment... our time together since we reconciled has been terrific, I feel she is genuinely happy, its almost like she can not get enough of me during the day. She commutes 30 minutes to/from work, when she gets of work she calls me right away and we talk the entire time it takes her to get home. We kiss several times through out the day, she is very affectionate towards me, at one point in a previous post I said she was putting in effort, but I don't think it was as much effort as it is just natural. Does all this factor in? Of course it does not excuse her actions, but the way she is during the daytime along with the possible long term effects of her traumatic childhood reason enough for me to be more patient? Obviously if she refuses to get help there is little I can do for her, but she surprisingly and obviously thought she had done no wrong, that she would not be held accountable, that even if she knows of her deficits they would not be called out - but now that they are should I give her time to come to terms w/ this, to self analyze and want to truly heal?

What do you think about her stance on the TRO? Like you said she is being honest, and again, to yours and my mind set it is shocking that she thinks this could justified, and if not justified then rug swept. Now that she is in the know as to what it is going take for our MR to heal from it, should I give her time to come to honest terms w/ it? Like I said I think her response of " I promise it will not happen again" was sincere. Should I tell her something like "Look, you can stay but we are going to have address this (along w/ everything else), and if you can not see my point of view by talking to me about it or reflecting on it, then you should talk to an IC about it."

I feel like I can DB the communication issues, the intimacy issues, (MC would improve the chances of success) and obviously if those were the only issues I would not be asking her to move out. As far as the abuse goes, like you said "Now I know", and with the resources you have posted and directly lent to my sitch I can clearly recognize it, and I plan to have zero tolerance for it, and since it has not been though out/ since it is something that developed over the past few years, I'm hoping she is not to set in these ways.

I know you will give to me straight V, these are the things going through my head and this is such a huge step (demanding she move out), that my mind is going a thousand miles a minute.

[Clyde]

I don't know how much it matters, but I'm going to add:

When the W said "I was severely depressed when I was living at my apartment, I missed my kids, I missed you, I missed the times we had." It was the FIRST TIME I ever saw her get emotional and teary eyed throughout our ENTIRE sitch.