Newbie In Need Of Guidance

[sandi2]

I know you are right, but I just can't let myself see anything but recon at this point. I don't want this to become a self fulfilling prophecy in the negative way.

We understand what you mean. Most all newbies are focused on saving the M. After all, this is the divorce busting forum, right? We want you to save the M, too. We have learned that before you can save anything, you have to save yourself. I can see that you need to..... just by the way you have focused on a single snide remark from your W. I have been at this long enough that I can usually see certain characteristics in the H pretty quickly. And if he doesn't direct his focus on the things the board tries to tell him........he won't have the strength to make it through this horrible ordeal. But if he will turn his focus on himself and his children, follow the suggestions we offer, work on himself as man.......he's going to be fine. Along with all of this, he learns what to do in his M situation.

I feel the urgency in you, to find a fast solution. I can only imagine the desperation to do something before the A goes any further. If there was a quick fix......I would not hesitate to give it to you. I feel some resistance when you feel someone is steering you away from what you want to get here. You may get sick hearing this, but it's common in newcomers.

In order to become a strong, attractive, self-confident, alpha male, you have to make changes. These are the male characteristics that are attractive to women......and other men respect. You cannot be a passive, co-dependent, beta, nice-guy type.......and think your WW is going to drop the OM and fall into your arms, b/c she won't be attracted to those traits.

Honestly, and I don't want you to think my goal here is to insult you, I think you probably have developed some of those things I described in that last sentence. We are saying that you can change your life by changing these traits. Once you break the co-dependency, stop the nice-guy ways, become more assertive, improve your male self-confidence, etc..........you will be able to change the dynamics in your MR.

How you interact with your WW shows your manliness.........or the lack of it. Most nice guys want to show tenderness, sympathy, caring, etc. That's fine if you have a normal, sweet, loving W. But when you have a wayward W, you have to apply tough love........or she will trample all over your sweet caring interactions. Nice guys want to cater to the W, and they give in to whatever she says. He thinks if he'll just be nicer or do more to help her with the house or kids.....or whatever she needs......then surely she will feel better and appreciate him more. The ugly truth about a wayward W is that she doesn't really appreciate the efforts of her H. She expects it. She has a sense of entitlement. The harder the nice H tries to satisfy her, the less attraction she feels for him. He wants to please her. He believes if he is nice enough, it will cause her to love him more. It's as if he is saying, "Look.....look at what I am doing for you. I am so nice to you.......even when you are ugly to me......don't you love me for my niceness?" Yes, she may want to use him like a teddy bear and cuddle at night, but the next day, it's back to her calling the shots and the his submission.

The only thing a wayward respects is strength. Any action that indicates weakness in the H, is automatically doomed. The wayward W dominates the beta type H. The irony is that secretly, the WW wants a man who is stronger than she is. She'll test her H to see if he will take her bossing him around, or yelling at him, or belittle him in front of the kids, or b'tching at him, or anything that gives a message of disrespect.

[rminer]

just by the way you have focused on a single snide remark from your W.

I interpret this as you think the comment about forgetting her number was a snide remark and not a temp check. Am I correct?

I'm curious because to me a temp check would mean I have at least gotten her attention a bit, which is at least a start.

Honestly, and I don't want you to think my goal here is to insult you,

Ok. So you think I'm a wuss. No offense taken. Seriously. As I said before, I have thick skin. I want your honest opinion and the unabashed truth. I'm not here for a pity party (although I do appreciate the words of encouragement and understanding I have received), I am here to save my family.

I keep reading "tough love" and "dominance over your W." I get it, but there is virtually no interaction between my wife and I since I started trying to follow the program here (there was something today I will ask your opinion on tomorrow). What are some ways I can accomplish this when I can barely get her to string together multiple words when speaking to me?


I have reread th posts in this thread and the examples I am seeing involve verbal cues to assert dominance. What do women see as nonverbal cues? I think I am going to have to start there until we start speaking more.

[TBSakaJ9]

but there is virtually no interaction between my wife and I since I started trying to follow the program here

You guys still live in the same house correct? If so, there should be plenty of opportunity for your W to notice your changes.

I can tell you from experience if you follow the 37 rules you will get your confidence back and your W's respect will return. Whether it leads to recon or not is a different story (since you can't control your W) but you will feel better about yourself.

My W and I are separated and only see each other maybe 1 hr per week during kid exchange and their activities. In the 1 hr she has plenty of time to observe my demeanor, appearance and confidence levels. I never talk about myself and what I am doing, where I have been, I don't bring us up or ask her any probing questions. The conversation is usually about the kids or very high level stuff about weather, a current event, something like that. IMO stopping the pursuing behavior and putting up with her BS is how you start to get your respect back..

I'm curious because to me a temp check would mean I have at least gotten her attention a bit, which is at least a start.

Yes, that is accurate so when she does it don't cave in which lets her know you are still available. I will give you an example.

3 months ago my W told me she was ready to move on and file for D. She sent this to me in a text message and I responded to her by saying "just let me know what time is best so we can discuss the details". She never responded to what I sent and we still have not discussed it. IMO that got her attention and I got some respect back. Right after BD my response would have been "You know I don't want this", "I will always love you, I want to work on this" or something like that. I hope you can tell the difference in the confidence levels of the responses. If would have said I don't want this or I love you......she knows she still has me by the b@lls and I would not have gotten any respect.

The best advice I ever got on this board was that the only way to get your spouse to return is if your not afraid to lose them.

[rminer]

You guys still live in the same house correct? If so, there should be plenty of opportunity for your W to notice your changes.

Yes, we still live in the same house. As I said before, it seems like she is following the 37 rules with me. To the letter. I honestly don't think she notices when I am there.

When I am trying to do my own thing and I am in the house, should I be visible to her, or is going in to another room ok? Say I want to read, is going to the bedroom fine or should I sit on the couch so she can see I have other interests? If I'm in another room it seems I would be out of sight/out of mind and possibly being anti social. Does that even matter at this point?

[LH19]

R,

It doesn't matter at this point. Sandi's rules help you to not make matters worse.

Things can not get better while she is in an A. You can't and shouldn't compete with OM.

Did you read Chris73 and PEW1974's thread?

[rminer]

Yesterday evening I came home and did a few chores that i needed to do and then sat down to watch the football game. Said hello to the W, she replied and that was the end of it.

During the game we both made a few comments about the game, she told me about an upcoming event for my youngest son, I asked if she got him signed up for something else we were talking about. That was about it.

Near the end of the game, she started talking a bit more about the game was more talkative. I engaged a bit, but not at great lengths.

She then asked when in would be home from work today. I said I had the day off. She responded by asking if one of our daughters could take my car to school. I said no because I have things to do. She said "in the evening?" I then told her yes, because I am taking our youngest son to his meeting.

She then told me that I didn't need to because she had to be there for something. I simply told her that I told her before that I wanted to start going, so I was going to go. She refuted that, so I simply said "then we can ride together in my car." She dropped it. A few minutes later, she started talking about another subject. We had a short, but pleasant conversation.

My job slows down tremendously in Jan., so up until then it is hard for me to be sure I will be home in time to take him. At the beginning of Jan. I told my wife that I wanted to start taking him just like I did last year. Her response was "Why? I have to be there a lot anyway, so you don't need to go."

This is one of the times she gets to see the OM, since he is the leader there. She is obviously trying to keep me away so she can see him.

When I took our son to the first meeting, the OM was there and talking to someone else. He has always come over to talk to me when we see each other and is very friendly. This time when he saw me you would have thought he saw a ghost. He didn't say a word and couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Am i playing with fire by insisting on going? I've already been emphatic that I was going to go, so I don't want to back out now, but could this backfire? I am going because I want to spend more time with my son. Being able to break up one of their chances to meet is a nice side effect though.

[TBSakaJ9]

Yes, we still live in the same house. As I said before, it seems like she is following the 37 rules with me. To the letter. I honestly don't think she notices when I am there.

I am 7 months in and my W has not made 1 comment to me about anything other than my new haircut makes me look younger. That is why they say the changes need to be for you and not your W. You feeling good and confident should not be based on getting validated by your W. It is hard at first but it is the truth. They also notice more than you think, she may not say anything for a while but trust me she is taking notes on you and your behavior.

Every W acts different but for me it is very much like a game of chicken and who is going to flinch first. It will take some time for her to notice your changes and accept them for what they are. If you are consistent with them eventually she will realize you did not do them to win her back.

I consider myself pretty good at Dbing but I still can't control my W so there are no guarantees.

When I am trying to do my own thing and I am in the house, should I be visible to her, or is going in to another room ok? Say I want to read, is going to the bedroom fine or should I sit on the couch so she can see I have other interests? If I'm in another room it seems I would be out of sight/out of mind and possibly being anti social. Does that even matter at this point?

I am not an in-house separation expert but if it was me I would act like the king of my castle ! If I want to read I usually go to a quiet place. If she is on the couch watching TV then go to another room.

At this point it doesn't matter....the more space you can give your W the better without it seeming like you are running scared. It took me a solid 4 months of removing pressure from my W before she dropped her guard.

The quicker you stop all the R talks, being needy, reaching out to her all the time, questioning her the better off you will be. Walk around your house with confidence not arrogance. Also know she wants space so don't try to follow her around the house.

Get some new clothes, new hair cut, cologne, lotions, scrubs, new shoes, loose weight, get jacked, etc. Those things will help with your confidence. I guarantee you if you do all those things, you will feel better about yourself, it will increase your confidence and your W will start to gain respect for you. Your W will not respect you if your don't respect yourself. If you act scared all the time any respect she has for you will continue to diminish.

[rminer]

I started reading Chris73, but wasn't in the right frame of mind. When he started talking about Christmas and his W not wanting to be there, I started getting discouraged and depressed. I was having a bad day. I'll pick up again on it again shortly though.

[rminer]

The quicker you stop all the R talks, being needy, reaching out to her all the time, questioning her the better off you will be. Walk around your house with confidence not arrogance. Also know she wants space so don't try to follow her around the house.

That's all been done. It's the confidence and respect thing I'm trying to get a handle on now.

[sandi2]

Okay, let's talk about the Alpha and Beta behavior. You are thinking too much about talking to your W. Too much talking is too Beta for most women. Lots and lots of talking is what women do......b/c that is how they are wired. Women are not attracted to a man who talks as much as she does. Do you understand what I mean? I don't mean to never say a word or have a conversation, but we aren't attracted to the chatty-cathy types. If there is a group of men, it's the strong silent type that draws the attraction of a woman.

When you do say something, lead with your words. You are the leader in your family, and in the M. You don't ask her permission, except in very specific circumstances. You tell her what you are doing, and then leave the decision to follow up to her. If she objects you can discuss it. However, not having a plan, or leaving all the planning to her......is Beta. Being weak-willed in how you execute your plan, or even indecisive as you speak to her about your plan, all of that is Beta. Knowing what you are going to do and then communicating that clearly to her is Alpha.

When you speak to her, maintain eye contact. Never drop your eyes or glance around nervously. If she interrupts, let her have her say. You do not interrupt her, b/c that's what women do......not what strong Alpha males do. When you speak.....do it slowly and quietly. You speak out of reason, not out of emotions. Always maintaining your eye contact with her.

An example of Alpha & Beta in an unpleasant situation where the WW is disrespecting the H, being a b'tch, throwing a fit, or whatever. Speaking quietly, but firmly to her, and if warranted, using harsh words and even profanity.....is a strong Alpha move. Pleading with her, whining, interrupting, and raising his tone over hers unnecessarily is Beta.

Learn to posture yourself like a "tall, dark, and handsome" Alpha. Stand and walk with your shoulders back and head held up. Don't slouch. When standing, keep your hands either behind your back, in your pocket. Don't use your hands to talk with. Make slow, deliberate actions, not quick, nervous or jerky.

When out in public with your W, grab her hand to lead her through a crowd. Use her elbow to steer her gently at parties. Place your hand on the small of her back. Put a possessive hand on her arm, her shoulder, or (most Alpha) the back of her neck. Loom ominously over her shoulder. But always ensure that it's YOU who is controlling the action.

Women like to be sexually dominated by a Alpha male. I don't mean domineering. Domineering is not dominating. Women are natural responders. Sometimes, the woman may like to initiate, but the Beta male is always waiting for the woman to lead, or decide, if there will be sex.....and that can lead to a SSM. The Apha male doesn't demand it, but if there's a reason there is no sex, he'll find out what it is....and it will be dealt with. The Beta suffers, while hoping and waiting for his W to call the shots in the bedroom.

If you will go on line and search for male dominance, you can find a beginner's guide that will give basic instructions. I doubt you will find much of it on this forum, but you can research it elsewhere.