Gordie, This is hard work. This may seem harsh, but you absolutely have to stay out of it, especially because D is in college - we're not talking little ones still in elementary school here. This is a young woman.
Also Gordie, your stbx absolutely must face her consequences and this is a big one. Stop being her big Daddy who will fix her messes. Of course you want your D1 and wife to have a good relationship. Everyone wants that for their children. Unfortunately, stbxw needs to realize that it's up to her to step up. Don't deprive her of the opportunity to do so.
Frankly, this is between them, not you. I know it's hard. Sorry to be harsh. xoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Please listen to the posters. The advice is extremely spot on. You have to step back and allow your wife and daughter to work things out between them. This is their bridge to rebuild.
If you get in the mix and something doesn't work, one or both of them will resent your interference. Leave them to rebuild the relationship. You didn't break that relationship, therefore you can't fix it....but you can listen when your daughter speaks to you about it, but think before jumping in with advice.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Understand most the guys on this forum past present and future are chronic 'fixers'. Myself included... we think we can fix the MLCr, the M, and the relationships they have with the mailman with the hidden agenda and covert contracts tucked in a hidden pocket as we try to be the Knight in shining armor to save the day.
As everyone has suggested ... not your circus, not your monkeys. I think Irish has been the best role model in how to do this. He has elegantly danced through that part of it with his ex, not interfering in the girls relationship with their mother but also not enabling either.
Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever got such a unanimous decision. Well, I take your advice seriously so I have really tried to step away from that particular drama and avoid the triangulation (new concept for me). D1 and I continue to talk about things and I do talk to her as an adult child. Stbx interestingly told her not to blame me and that dad did nothing wrong and that the D is mom’s choice. I know theoretically that divorce hurts children but somehow I thought it would be easier on the older ones. In my situation, I think it may be harder for them because they actually understand who is doing what to whom.
Separate thoughts / struggles that I thought I’d share in case it was helpful to others. These are personal and religious and not necessarily d b, so feel free to ignore.
I am a Christian. I believe in the Bible. I believe that even if we legally D, that I will still be spiritually married to my w, even if she is with OM2, 3, 4, etc. Stbx knows my beliefs even if she no longer shares them. I feel my beliefs make certain parts of d b difficult or impossible for me. Yes, I feel like I am now walking away. Yes, I don’t want to be plan b or the backup plan... but my beliefs drive me to not want to date or be in another R... to be faithful even if she is unfaithful ...until death do we part. If you know that George Jones song “He stopped loving her today”... I think that’s going to be me.
Stbx is having another clothing free weekend with OM2 which means I am alone with the kids again. This hurts less than it used to, but it still does hurt. Older kids know where mom is. Little kids don’t even ask.
Peace be with you all.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
No one wins in a divorce. No one. If only these crazy MLCrs had enough clarity to see that the fantasy they buy into so whole-heartedly isn't real.
Regarding the concept of spiritual marriage. I will say this: in my personal experience, how I felt when we physically separated residences and how I feel now are vastly different. You may feel this way in a year or two or three or you may find that your views on this change to something else. Truthfully, try not to have this be a top of mind subject right now as it diverts too much energy from what you need to do - move out, get settled and establish a new routine for the kids.
For me, if I love someone, I'm always going to love them. That doesn't mean they continue to have the power to hurt me though.
xoxoxoxo
Good job on stepping away from that. I truly believe in my heart that it was yet another effort to reel you back. Let it go and focus on you and the kids as you have been.
Every moment with your children is a gift. Too bad she is too caught up in her crisis to realize that.
xoxoxoxoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
to be faithful even if she is unfaithful ...until death do we part. If you know that George Jones song “He stopped loving her today”... I think that’s going to be me.
That's a favourite song of mine as well. I'm not religious myself but I certainly understand where you are coming from.
For me it came down to the fact that I made a Promise, just as you did and our wives did. I recall my ex telling me that the promise she made was meaningless and she felt that mine should be as well. I didn't accept that then and still don't.
Where our thinking diverges though is that I linked my Promise to my Duty. Since she left and had made it clear that she preferred OM to me even after a more than reasonable time for her to think it over, I felt that my Duty was fulfilled and that I could move on. It's now just over a year since I made that decision and I haven't found anyone new and realistically am not really looking but I have certainly let her go.
Something I see you struggling with, that I never had to was to identify for yourself where the boundaries of your own Duty lie. Is it just an emotional or spiritual one, or are there practical elements. The discussion around whether or not you should have a role in smoothing things between D1 and her or not is a good example.
A common phrase around here is that we've been "fired". In cases like ours where we haven't been explicitly told that it's tough.
Just some things to muse upon on a Sunday.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Thank you for reminding me that my feelings may well change. What I feel today will not be how I feel a year or two from now.
When you say you will always love them...what does that mean? I’ve been asking myself that question and I don’t know the answer.
Yes, I cherish the time with the children as I know our separation will be a huge change to their world.
Some days I say to myself that the woman I married would never do this but here she is doing this.
***
Andrew,
Those are good thoughts and questions. Where does duty end? When does until death do we part mean anything but just that? Stbx told me she felt “dead” so fulfilled her obligation. Such twisted, verbal acrobatics. And like yours, she said it fulfilled my obligation too—lucky me! One time when stbx asked me to do something and I declined saying she “fired” me from that job—she didn’t like that language. I think I’m her mind he end of our M just happened and she is not to blame.
I think AnotherStander wrote something that has stuck with me. He was happy in his M on cruise control. Everything seemed good. His failure was to not see that his W was not happy with their R on cruise control. So at b d, it was too late to save the M for him. She had given up and for her there was no trying again.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Well, Gordie, I think that might mean something different to the individual. So, I can only tell you what it means to me, to always love my exh. It means that I love the man he was, the good times we had, and respect those memories enough to make sure I behave in a civilized manner, for myself as much as for our son and even exh.
If anyone is going to cheapen what we had, it won't be me.
I look at this man I was married to and my heart no longer flutters in my chest; I no longer catch my breath. I no longer feel the way most people feel when they are "in love." I wonder often what happened to that feeling. The answer I've come up with is that a person can only take so much. Gottman calls it withdrawals from the love bank, I think. Well he is so far into over-draft that the bank is closed.
Now when I look at him it's a fondness, a warmth that only goes so far, but doesn't permeate the wall that I've put up which separates us. I bear him no malice. I wish him well and loving kindness. If I can help him without harming myself I will do what I can.
It behooves me to point out that I do not have an affair partner in my face, paraded around in front of my son. I suspect I would not be so magnanimous in that circumstance. Rather my formidable claws would likely be out and I'd be going for the juggler, I fear or perhaps lower on the body
You're still in the thick of things Gordie. Leave all this for later sorting out - focus on the move and the kids and yourself right now.
You will figure this out when you're supposed to.
xoxoxoxo
{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Just wanna chime in here about 2 interesting points Gordie and Butterfly raised here...
1) Cruise control! That describes PERFECTLY what our marriage before and you know what? Just like that man (Anotherstander?) I felt fine with it as well, and i think that i read somewhere that MEN specifically are often more at ease with that kind of lifestyle since they feel the most secure when they have a "home" meaning a family, a place to call home and secure circumstances around him. It's basically what is necessary to feel comfortable and at ease. Not realizing that your spouse may need something more than that then is probably a recipe for disaster like in my case as well...
2) those "in love" feelings... they DO lessen with time even in a "healthy" relationship/marriage though i believe. After often decades of marriage, that feeling of discovery, excitement and first getting to know a new person is no longer present which is normal. However, the emotional wall you describe is probably the only thing which keeps you from once again feeling CLOSE to that person again, right? I have put up said wall as well and i cannot allow myself to lower it for fear of getting hurt. It also only makes sense to do so with a person that you can see a potential future with, not an MLCer
or perhaps lower on the body