in fact whenever she wants to discuss feelings I cut her off.
In your post, this jumped out at me. If this has been going on a while, I suspect this has a lot to do with her wanting a divorce.
Jim, no I usually do listen. It through AS on this site that I eventually developed my validation skills. My cutting her off was in this instance because I didn't want to listen to her tell me how she does love me and so forth. It's too painful.
On New Years Eve we went to a friends house for a long hike and then brunch. My W for some reason wanted to drive separately. So I drove all the girls and she was in her car behind us the whole way. The reason seems she didn't plan on doing the actual hike and drove straight to the house.
I spent the afternoon doing yard work, mainly working on a chicken coop I'm building. Later inside the house, D11 asked me if I was going to the party with mommy. Nope, didn't even know the W was going out for NYE. At about 7pm, my W left and while going out the door mumbled "see you later." I was a little depressed but not too much. I have no idea where she went. I watched TV shows (Divorce on HBO, poignant and funny), and went to bed at about 10:30pm.
On New Years I woke and found my W on the couch on her iPhone. I said good morning. We went as a family, all together in the same car this time, to a friend's for an afternoon party. It was a gorgeous day and we sat outside and everybody had a lot of fun. It was a small gathering of close friends, but W and I hardly interact other than a game of Pictionary with the kids. We were there from about 11:30am through 5pm. One interesting thing was I was sitting and overhead a conversation between my W and another friend who was saying how her parents (who are also friends of ours) almost got divorced twice in their early 40s and then again in their late 40s. I suspect my W has not told anybody of this circle of friends about her thoughts on divorce.
When we got home, I told everybody in the car while in front of the house, "Happy New Year and here's to a good 2018." Getting out of the car, my W put her hand on my chest. She has told me before she values these family times together, and I take her touch as nothing more than that she had a good family day too.
My W left to go to Brazilian jujitsu and came home after I retired to the bedroom.
I received an email reminder of remaining availability of the next Retrouvaille in the area. I really want to send it to my W. It takes a lot of faith to not pursue.
Me: W, just tell me directly what you want instead of me having to read your mind W: We can keep living together in the same house. Me: You mean, we are divorced but continue living together in the same house? W: Yes, it can be done.
I really don't get your W at all. I mean how is living together in the same house and raising kids together any different than M, because you're not having sex I guess? I don't understand why anyone that wants a D would want to keep living with that same person, it's just perplexing.
Quote:
Me: No. W: Well then things won't stay the same for the kids. Me: No, they won't W: Again telling me I'm not the enemy and she doesn't hate me. Me: I know you don't hate me, I understand
I think walk away to end the conversation and she follows.
W: So what do you want to do? It seems you have a plan. Me: No, I don't have a plan. I'm not going to do anything.
I know I'm not validating her, in fact whenever she wants to discuss feelings I cut her off. I am also not trying to be mean, although I acknowledge moving her stuff out is mean too.
I'm not sure that convo would have been the time to validate, I mean you know I'm a big proponent of validating but there are times where you have to stand your ground and protect yourself as well. I think you did fine in the above convo. You stood your ground and upheld your boundaries without being mean or argumentative about it.
Quote:
Any advice on telling the kids at this point? In our state a divorce takes 6 months once the first petition is filed.
If they were younger I would say to wait until your W is preparing to move out before telling them. But at their ages, they're going to know things aren't right and I think the two of you should sit down with them and have a discussion. Don't tell them you're getting a D but maybe just tell them the two of you are struggling with your relationship and trying to decide what to do. Make sure to emphasize that it has nothing to do with them and no matter what happens that BOTH of you will be there for them always.
I really don't get your W at all. I mean how is living together in the same house and raising kids together any different than M, because you're not having sex I guess? I don't understand why anyone that wants a D would want to keep living with that same person, it's just perplexing.
Tell me about it. My W's other idea is to build a granny unit in the backyard and I assume she will live in it. I didn't give an answer to that, but I do find it a little creepy to have your ex living in the backyard.
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
If they were younger I would say to wait until your W is preparing to move out before telling them. But at their ages, they're going to know things aren't right and I think the two of you should sit down with them and have a discussion. Don't tell them you're getting a D but maybe just tell them the two of you are struggling with your relationship and trying to decide what to do. Make sure to emphasize that it has nothing to do with them and no matter what happens that BOTH of you will be there for them always.
AS, thanks for this advice. I was watching the HBO series Divorce and what the father says when the parents tell the kids was perfect. Worth writing down and repeating because he said exactly what you should say and nothing more.
OK, so I did forward the Retrouville email to my W saying "I regretting not doing this a couple of years ago."
She gave me a much longer reply.
She wrote not to regret not going because it's not useful.
She then wrote:
"I want you to know that I care for you like I do for nobody else except for our girls. When you said the other day that you were disappointed in me. I could have told you that I beat you to the punch. I am disappointed in me too. I am disappointed that I could not remain the loving wife you deserve. You are a lovely man. You are wicked smart, which is one of the things I love best about you. You are a great father. I have seen you grow into a sailor, a pilot, an [xxxx], and [great at work]. You remain a handsome man, getting better with age, I must say.
Our life together has been great. It is still great. I think we manage to be example parents and created a pretty harmonious family life. Our girls are testimony to that. I think we did quite well. Far far better than most couples and contemporaries.
I have felt a tremendous amount of guilt because I stopped loving you the way one ought to love their spouse. I think ending our marriage is the saddest thing to me. I tried the best I could. I have apologized to you before and I will again, because you did not deserve that heartbreak. That was not my brightest moment, I am very sorry for that."
She then goes on to talk about being my "best friend" and saying she wants to disrupt our lives as little as possible and suggests building a granny unit in our backyard.
She ends the email with, "I am moving forward with a vision in which we are both continuing to be partners that hold each other in good regard. I love my friends, but our love will always be beyond that. I am still the same person. I hold hope that you don't hate me, that you can see in me someone that will be your lifelong partner still when it comes to the most important thing, our girls; and your friend."
So why does she want to divorce me? I really don't understand or know what to do, other than validate the feelings she expresses here. I do think all the niceness here is simply guilt and/or letting me down easy.
"I do regret it because it focuses on communication and trust and could have helped us. We were foolish for not seeking some help with marriage counseling, and instead sweeping our issues under the rug only to cause some underlying resentment in our marriage.
After reading the first paragraph of your email, I really think that Men are from Mars, and Women from Venus. Given everything you say, I don’t understand why you don’t want to work on the marriage? Please don't answer this.
About the guilt, you must find it frustrating and depressing. I agree ending a marriage is sad and oftentimes preventable.
I had told you I am not doing anything and I will follow your lead. I have loved you, and I think I can still love you, and with some help I believe we could have a good marriage. If you won’t, then fine, but I need to move on. I know what I want from life. I want a partner who will be there for me. I want to be in love again. Neither of which I have now.
I have no doubt we both love our children and we both have their best interests at heart. I also want to mitigate the damage of divorce as much as possible. I don't harbor any illusions about the difficulties. I do think we are both reasonable and capable of discussing and working most issues out with only minimal help. I don’t want to screw you, and you don’t want to screw me either. We are not, nor will we be friends, but this doesn’t mean our intercourse has to be hostile.
I’m willing to consider all possibilities. However, I want to be in a position to pursue my life as well. I rejected your idea of continued living together in the same house because that would be a big obstacle to me moving on with anybody else. I’ll evaluate all options based on meeting my goals, as well as preserving what I can of my life-style and that of my children."
I didn't get another email from her. I did get text messages asking if I could take her to the doctor's next week because she will be under anasthesia. I am available and replied yes. She did reply "thank you"
That evening after our emails, I did not really see my W. She was leaving with my two younger daughters to go out to dinner as I was returning home. Then when she came home from dinner at 9:30 she went straight to bed.
Yesterday, in the morning she woke and left for work before I woke up. When she came home I was outside gardening, and she came to ask how my day was and we chatted briefly. She then said she would make dinner. She also sewed a zipper on a duffle bag for me that I had asked her to do about a month ago. I found her especially nice.
We were invited to a dinner on Saturday by D11's friend's family, which we accepted. And earlier today she texted me and emailed me info on health insurance.
My goal in the email was to draw two distinct options of either we're a married couple or we're not. There's no in-between being "life-long partner" as my W put it. I also wanted to make sure she knows I'm OK either way. I did want to write something to the effect that I thought Marriage is about being life-long partners, but I avoided purposely pushing her buttons.
I also realize that at some point if my W wants to reconcile, I have certain conditions. I'm not going to repeat the mistakes from the previous time I took her back. We need to get counseling. I want her to wear her wedding ring. I'm not sure what else.
Been reading up on your sitch and I feel for you, man. Some similarities with my sitch is that we've both had multiple BDs and W has/is going through MLC. After most recent BD, my W has said "I want something different than this R". I took this as wanting to be with another man. But most recently has said "I want to be alone". With your W suggesting a granny suite and wanting a D, do you think she would pursue another relationship or stay alone?
Wow, that sounds so much like what my XW told me that it's downright eerie. She would say things like that in MC and the counselor would sit there with her mouth practically hanging open and would point-blank ask her if I was so great, then what exactly was the problem? She would respond "I don't know." I remember one time the counselor asked her if she loved me and she said yes, she asked if she respected me and she said oh yes, very much. She said what about sex, is he pretty selfish? And she said no I love the sex, in fact I would like to continue having sex. So then the counselor says "you love him, respect him and enjoy sex with him? In counseling we call that 'the makings of a great relationship!'" Then she asked again if my XW could describe WHY she didn't want to be married anymore, and she couldn't. To this day I don't know why we're not together anymore.
Is your W on A/D's? My XW went on them after our son was born 15 years ago. There are recent studies suggesting long term A/D use is making people lose the ability to "love". Over time they quit feeling love for their spouse and even their children. Maybe it's just me looking for answers where there are none, but I can't help but wonder if many of our sitches aren't the result of this.
Anyway I think you are right in not wanting to be her best friend. My XW kept pushing that as well, she didn't want to keep living with me but she wanted to be besties and kept emphasizing what great parents we were and how we would continue to be a team for our kids. I made it clear to her that I didn't want to be besties thank you very much, even though I would continue to work together with her when it came to the kids.
She's got to learn to miss you and that will never happen as long as she keeps living there (or in the back yard, LOL!) Maybe offer to build her a doghouse if she wants to live out back?
Been reading up on your sitch and I feel for you, man. Some similarities with my sitch is that we've both had multiple BDs and W has/is going through MLC. After most recent BD, my W has said "I want something different than this R". I took this as wanting to be with another man. But most recently has said "I want to be alone". With your W suggesting a granny suite and wanting a D, do you think she would pursue another relationship or stay alone?
Wow Hispeed, similar time-frame between our sitches too.
To answer your question, I suspect she will not pursue another relationship, at least not immediately. Around the first BD she was pursuing every man possible. This time is different. We have a female friend about 35 years old who just got married to somebody we think was not a good match. My W was all disgusted because she felt our friend didn't know how to live alone and was jumping to be in a MR just to be with somebody. My W was like "I would rather be alone." In October I took my 3 girls on vacation without the W and when we returned she said how great it was to be alone.
My W has built up a very strong network of close friends and I believe that is enough for her.
