Adjusting to being a LBS....

[sandi2]

I forgot to put the toilet seat down one time. According to my wife, that was enough to prove that I didn't respect her. Huh? I told her that I didn't even realize I'd forgotten to put the toilet seat down. She told me that it was because in my subconscious I didn't respect her. Holy sh*t!

Well....since women wanted equality with men, rather than men treating them as the fairer sex .....maybe she should learn to leave the seat up.

[sandi2]

MC (Or DC as she calls it) was a bit of a disaster. All the fails at 180ing came up. *sigh* I did make my case for trying the new parenting approach... and told her I would back off on it until she could think about it.

Since you seem to have a lot of issues that cause you anger and frustration, maybe the physical separation will work in helping you resolve or cope with whatever happened in the past.

My suggestion is to stop focusing on trying to persuade her to stay in the M. In fact, just stop trying to work on a marriage relationship right now. Put your focus and energy in healing yourself. You need help with your self esteem issues. I don't say this in a critical way, b/c my heart goes out to you and how you feel you need to over explain yourself. People who feel judged, criticized, attacked, blamed, etc., will often defend themselves by over explaining.

Don't stop working on the parenting skills. If the MC does not seem to be helping at this time, perhaps getting counseling in how to co-parent would help the most.

One thing I appreciate about your posts is how you aren't soft on yourself. You seem to be honest about your faults. Now, if you can learn how to correct them, it should change a lot of things in your personal life. We could all say the same thing about our own lives, I'm sure. According to what you've written, I can see why your W is frustrated to the gills. If you can learn to communicate about the children more, then later down the road, hopefully, you can share your past. Timing is very important, so I would follow your IC's advice about when you are more prepared to approach it.

Has she ever called the police (or threatened to call) when you got angry? Have you attended anger management, or sought counseling in the past?

Has there ever been any inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex from either of you? Have you ever suspected your W of having an emotional affair? I'm just trying to get a little more about the relationship background.

I sincerely hope your family can get through the holidays without having further incident. ((hugs))

[AnotherStander]

This morning she thanked me for getting the apartment and touched me on the shoulder in a friendly way. First time she has touched me in a week or more.

I'm surprised she didn't pat you on the head and say "good boy!"

We have the kids at a sitter for a couple of hours tonight. My goal is to not discuss the relationship at all. I will talk about what we need to do for the apartment, or financials, or the kids (specifically 123 Magic), or we can talk about the movie we've seen and make small talk, or watch a movie together at home. Hell, if she doesn't have a plan for something to do or discuss tonight, I should just go to the gym.

Fixed that for you I may have missed it, but why are the kids at a sitter? Did the two of you discuss having a date night (I hope not) or something?

[Subitai]

Since you seem to have a lot of issues that cause you anger and frustration, maybe the physical separation will work in helping you resolve or cope with whatever happened in the past.

Yes. Right now my primary focus is on fixing myself, but it's insanely hard not to pursue her.

My suggestion is to stop focusing on trying to persuade her to stay in the M. In fact, just stop trying to work on a marriage relationship right now. Put your focus and energy in healing yourself.

I agree with this. Every time I have pushed the R, things have gotten significantly worse. Every time I relax and work on the D/Sep, things calm down for her. Moreover, every time I try and force her to reconsider, I hurt myself. I hadn't really realized this, but after a conversation where I strip myself bare and beg her to think of X/Y/Z, I am a wreck, emotionally. I'm hurting both of us with this behavior.

You need help with your self esteem issues. I don't say this in a critical way, b/c my heart goes out to you and how you feel you need to over explain yourself. People who feel judged, criticized, attacked, blamed, etc., will often defend themselves by over explaining.

I have this problem. My mother was a very practical person, who would be critical and sarcastic to teach us lessons. Get hurt, her first response was "Well, that was dumb."

I have always been quick to defend, and get angry in defense of what were not meant as attacks, but openings of discussions about how she'd like to do things differently/better in the future.

Don't stop working on the parenting skills. If the MC does not seem to be helping at this time, perhaps getting counseling in how to co-parent would help the most.

MC has transitioned into DC / Co-Parenting discussions. This MC is the one we've seen 3 times before, and W met with her by herself a few months ago and decided to ask for a divorce while talking with it through with the MC. I was informed of this after the fact, I was not invited to the MC, or even told she was seeing the MC at the time.

One thing I appreciate about your posts is how you aren't soft on yourself. You seem to be honest about your faults. Now, if you can learn how to correct them, it should change a lot of things in your personal life. We could all say the same thing about our own lives, I'm sure. According to what you've written, I can see why your W is frustrated to the gills. If you can learn to communicate about the children more, then later down the road, hopefully, you can share your past. Timing is very important, so I would follow your IC's advice about when you are more prepared to approach it.

Yes, she definitely has valid reasons. I don't mean to project that I was a 'do nothing' husband, though. I made adjustments after each trip to the MC, (taking more care of the kids in the morning, not fighting in front of the kids, working on controlling anger even though I never went to IC for it.) but the root of the communication problems were never addressed.

Has she ever called the police (or threatened to call) when you got angry?

No. I never got physical. But I did get unreasonably mad, and I did need to leave, which she felt was unproductive and dangerous.

Have you attended anger management, or sought counseling in the past?

Not until this BD. And there's reason. My IC is actually focused on PTSD right now, with a side of AM. I had an incredibly bad experience with a psychologist when I was a teenager, one that scarred, scared, and emotionally distressed me beyond belief. I nearly died because of it, and I have never trusted therapists since. The first 3-4 visits to the IC were talking me down off of the cliff of my PTSD around this.

Has there ever been any inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex from either of you? Have you ever suspected your W of having an emotional affair? I'm just trying to get a little more about the relationship background.

I do not believe so. The only thing I could think that might even indicate this is her taking more time to do makeup/etc in the mornings, and an increase of beauty routines (more skin masks/etc) at night. The other thing was her saying, about a month after the bomb had dropped, that she wouldn't consider it cheating if one of us started dating somebody now. That struck me as completely weird.
But honestly, if there is something going on, right now I don't want to know.

I sincerely hope your family can get through the holidays without having further incident. ((hugs))

I'm going to have a massive discussion with my parents about the PTSD stuff over the holidays, but hopefully that is all. My parents will be the only ones who know about the D. My brother and sister and their families will be in the dark.

I'm honestly wondering if there isn't a bit of MLC mixed up in the WAW action going on here, too.

At any rate, I think the separation will be helpful for me. It's hard to come to that realization, but it's true. Getting away from her will let me focus on parenting in a way with less conflict. She's still engaging in the conflict laden parenting we have defaulted to, and doesn't want to take time to talk about trying 123 Magic because her emotional bucket is empty. She has no time to focus on that, she wants to focus on co-parenting/financial separation/physical separation instead. That's why I took the lead on getting us an apartment to get that started in January.

[Subitai]

This morning she thanked me for getting the apartment and touched me on the shoulder in a friendly way. First time she has touched me in a week or more.

I'm surprised she didn't pat you on the head and say "good boy!"

We have the kids at a sitter for a couple of hours tonight. My goal is to not discuss the relationship at all. I will talk about what we need to do for the apartment, or financials, or the kids (specifically 123 Magic), or we can talk about the movie we've seen and make small talk, or watch a movie together at home. Hell, if she doesn't have a plan for something to do or discuss tonight, I should just go to the gym.

Fixed that for you I may have missed it, but why are the kids at a sitter? Did the two of you discuss having a date night (I hope not) or something?

It was supposed to be to work out the apartment, but that's accomplished. We were also going to talk about the xmas trip to my parents. I'm thinking I'll ask if she has anything she wants to discuss, and if not, just go to the gym.

[AnotherStander]

Good, that sounds like an excellent plan!

[Subitai]

She wasn't home when I got there, so I texted her I was going to the gym and went. She called and asked if I could stop by the store on the way back to pick up some stuff, which I did. When I got home, she asked what gym I was going to, so I told her it was the one near my work that offers meditation and yoga, and I signed up for it since my work will cover most of the cost.

We chatted a little bit about our days, she thanked me again for all the work I've been doing with the kids and getting the apartment put together. She went to sleep (she's pretty sick, a side effect of all the stress the last few months, I guess) and I went and fetched the kids, got them ready for bed and tucked in.

I went to bed not long after. I've only been to the one meditation class, but I've been using it to try and help me get to sleep at it seems to help a bit there.

Had IC yesterday, too, and my therapist said I need to slow down and focus on my agitation level. There are a lot of big changes going on right now, so I need to refocus on the basics of paying attention to how amped up my nervous system is, and focus on keeping it as calm as possible to make dealing with these new changes possible. He makes a good point.

I may not be posting for the next week or so as we're heading out for the xmas trip and I won't have much privacy. I'll fill everyone in on how it went when I get back. I'm definitely worried about it. I hope my parents behave.

[sandi2]

I agree with this. Every time I have pushed the R, things have gotten significantly worse. Every time I relax and work on the D/Sep, things calm down for her. Moreover, every time I try and force her to reconsider, I hurt myself.

When the H is focused on saving the MR, everything he does places emotional pressure on her. The end result is her pushing against him even more. She is working to prove to him that there is no chance of saving the M. That's why the W will often relax and even act more like herself when the H agrees to the D.....b/c she feels the emotional pressure lift.

I have always been quick to defend, and get angry in defense of what were not meant as attacks, but openings of discussions about how she'd like to do things differently/better in the future.

You may also relate her to your mother, and immediately go into defense mode.

MC has transitioned into DC / Co-Parenting discussions. This MC is the one we've seen 3 times before, and W met with her by herself a few months ago and decided to ask for a divorce while talking with it through with the MC. I was informed of this after the fact, I was not invited to the MC, or even told she was seeing the MC at the time.

Not good. This counselor is your W's counselor, not a MC or DC for the two of you.

No. I never got physical. But I did get unreasonably mad, and I did need to leave, which she felt was unproductive and dangerous.

The incident made not have been reasonable cause for that level of anger, but there is a reason you get so angry. I hope you'll get professional help, so that you can be happier. Carrying around a keg of dynamite is not a healthy way to live. The root cause needs to be uncovered and tools to deal with it, b/c just trying to "control" your anger may not be enough.

How did things go with your parents during Christmastime?

[Zues126]

No. I never got physical. But I did get unreasonably mad, and I did need to leave, which she felt was unproductive and dangerous.

The incident made not have been reasonable cause for that level of anger, but there is a reason you get so angry. I hope you'll get professional help, so that you can be happier. Carrying around a keg of dynamite is not a healthy way to live. The root cause needs to be uncovered and tools to deal with it, b/c just trying to "control" your anger may not be enough.

Sandi, you're an amazing person and poster and I'm glad you're on these boards. I'm guessing you wrote these sentences naturally but they are very well balanced.

When I first read them I misunderstood. I think too often anger gets a bad rap, and that people are too sensitive about anger. These days it seems if a guy acts angrily he's an out of control abusive monster. And certainly if it is happening regularly as part of a routine way of living that isn't very pleasant.

But anger is a part of us. I watched a few movies with my kids over the xmas holiday, and they each starred main character guys that were inspiring people. For example, The Bruce Lee Story. In it Bruce lost his cool a couple of times. But he was also insanely driven, lived his life to the fullest, and achieved quite a lot in and out of the ring.

I know during my M I lost my temper a couple of times. And I know I've gotten angry with my children on occasion. Usually it's a fairly mild display, like I realize that I'm speaking loudly. And a couple of times I've lost my cool completely (once I was in an argument with my son when he was in trouble and he ran into the bedroom and locked me out and when he wouldn't open it I broke through the door).

The funny part is though that while if I listed out everything I've ever done in anger in one post without any explanation and no representation of the many years of joyous carefree and peaceful existence in between it would look like I'm a dangerous guy. But I know that while I am not proud of every choice that I've made and I'm no saint, I'm no monster. And frankly I think there is a time and place for a healthy anger, and that God has given us a place in this world and a role to fulfill, and anger is one of the tools he gave us to alert us to some things that need be addressed. The "Scary Dad" voice isn't a go-to, but there are situations where the hammer needs to be put down.

I say all of this because I wouldn't want S to think he needs to eliminate anger entirely, never hear it's voice, stifle it, and think that if he ever loses his cool his XW is right to label him as abusive. I know in my eagerness to save my M I tried to take as much blame as I could and I welcomed the abusive label thinking that meant if I neutered myself that it would make me a worthy man. I have learned better, and I have learned to trust myself that whether XW or others approve or not I have come to accept and appreciate my entire self, imperfect though I am.

But Sandi said it very nicely. If your anger is appropriate to the situation, fine. If you believe that you are, as she put it, carrying around a keg of dynamite, then she's right. Because then it's not just responding with appropriate emotions, it's responding inappropriately because you are wounded in some way. Like a dog that attacks a hand reaching to pet it because it was hurt by other people in the past. If this is the case then IC is a really good idea. Just remember the anger is just a symptom and isn't the problem, the problem is finding and healing the wound that makes you so sensitive to things that wouldn't rattle others. The benefit would be less collateral damage to others and less suffering for yourself, all good things.

But don't think anger is the enemy or that any display is proof you're a bad guy.

Sandi expressed all of this intuitively in a few words. I had to write a bunch about it. I just know it was a journey for me and I think that men have a right to be angry when it's appropriate without being labelled or judged for their emotions.

Hang in.

[Subitai]

I am in IC right now, for PTSD and the anger. My therapist likes to talk about PTSD sufferers coming from high conflict families having a baseline fight or flight respose set higher than others. 1 is calm, 10 is fighting for your life. I have been going through life never being much calmer than a 3 or 4 unless under extrodinairy circumstances. My therapy is focused on resetting my physiological responses and baes state so that I can not be afraid of my anger and of losing control of it. It is a process. I don’t want to pass this on to my kids and have them have the same issues.

We are still on xmas at the parents. It has gone very well. We even had a long talk about where things are going and she cried a bit and said she felt guilty. Which is a change from her locked down robot goong forward and get it done mental state lately. She even talked about how there may be ‘other paths’ forward for us, and who knows if we might wind up together again. I said that I agree, but I need to focus on getting in a good place for myself and for the kids so I can be a good dad and co-parent, and that I don’t want to assign hopes or plans for our future relationship beyond that because it is too mesy and hard.

Beyond that, we have been very friendly, even a little flirty. I told my brother and sister in law, and asked them to be kind and lend her a sympathetic ear if she needed it. The first night here my parents did not make her feel welcome, but it was a very short night since we got in late. I talked to both of them in person about things in our family past I needed to because of therapy and asked them tomtry harder for my W and especially for the kids. They did, and things have been much easier for her. Even fun!

She says she is confused and sad, but I am not pushing her. I am trying to give her space to think and to feel safe. Doing this has actually made me a lot calmer about the upcoming separation and co-parenting. I am less panicky and less likely tomstart crying.

She is a great person, and I hope she finds a way through this that, just like I need to find a way through it.

An interesting thing she said was that she feels like she doesn’t know me because of all the stuff I am digging up out of my past, and I agreed and said it feels like I don’t know all of myself and am finding new things out, too.

She showed a lot of interest in my IC and what I have been saying to my parents. She is in playing cards with the extended family while I get the kids down right now.

This trip has gone very well. I have talked to my family more and more openly than I have in decades. I am making plans for a summer trip with my brother to reconnect more.

I am making progress on me.