I used to post as Michlynn but changed my username to reflect how I feel now.
My copy of PM will be here today or tomorrow. I'm familiar with Schnarch's work and some of the criticism leveled against him (IMHO, every therapist who offers different theories and techniques will receive some criticism from peers), but I've never read PM.
Out of curiosity, have any of you read Michele's book, Divorce Remedy: The Proven Seven-Step Program for Saving Your Marriage? From what you've been saying about PM, it sounds as though DR and TSSM together incorporate some of Schnarch's theories in a user-friendly, practical, application over theory, format (e.g., change by one spouse will change the marriage, detachment, the LD spouse controls the amount of sex in a marriage, sex is generally critical to intimacy and is more than just scratching an itch, etc.). In fact, Michele cites Schnarch in TSSM and has PM in the bibliography and on the recommended reading list.
I found DR after reading an article on walkaway wives (which I've probably been most of our marriage). Because I was impressed with DR and its emphasis on saving marriages, effecting change to improve both you and your relationship with or without your partner's active involvement, and on being your partner's best friend even in the midst of a divorce, I ordered TSSM.
TSSM was an eyeopener by showing me the hurt and rejection my husband felt, but never overtly expressed, in our marriage when I carelessly (and occasionally intentionally if I was upset with him) failed to recognize and/or respond to his desire for sex.
What I didn't expect, but what's happening now, is that each day I see more clearly the ways in which I affect, positively but more often negatively, our marriage while also seeing the many, many times I misinterpreted things my husband did or said and reacted to my misinterpretation. And, although I see and am happy about the positive changes all around, I'm still feeling some discomfort because the things I'm doing feel unfamiliar and make me feel more vulnerable as closeness and intimacy increase.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading PM (and appreciate the book recommendation), which sounds as though it might explain some of the underlying dynamics in my marriage. If Schnarch provides some practical advice on effecting change, I may use it to supplement DR and TSSM, which have been been more effective in leading to actual improvements and changes than anything else so far.
On reviewing this post, there may be a caveat I should add. In my marriage, I'm the LD (lower physical desire, definitely NOT "no desire" or "hates sex") and I identified with the walkaway wife in Michele's article. I've thought long and hard about what would have happened in our marriage if my husband was the one implementing techniques from DR and TSSM.
In all honesty, I think I would have felt uncomfortable at first (changing from the "old familiar" to something new), but I would have eventually responded to the changes as long as they were consistent (I'd be thinking or expecting things to go back to the way they were; and even though I probably bear the most responsibility for problems in our marriage, my husband has his "bad" habits and behavior, such as not telling me straight out what he wants or feels, expecting me to read his mind, telling me what I'm feeling or thinking, criticizing me personally rather than my behavior, etc.)
I think the positive changes would still happen, but they would be slower especially if I thought he was doing them with the purpose in mind of changing me. And, in all honesty, I would have suspected or been convinced that his purpose was to change me and that his positive changes weren't permanent. In fact, my husband has said a couple of things lately indicating that he doesn't think my changes are permanent. Fortunately, he's still reacting positively to the changes.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Our divorced neighbor came over. She was talking to my wife about "hooking up" with guy tonight who is sort of a "boy toy" to her. Anyway, the talking started to bug me because she kept talking about how hot this guy was etc. Anyway, I started to get really irritated with the conversation. In the past I used to have fun talking to this woman about sex but now it's just irritating because I can see how "needy" she really is. At any rate, I decided that I had had enough and left the kitchen. BTW. This in itself is a 180 because I'm typically the one who keeps talking to her while my W gets irritated. They are still downstairs talking.
So my assignment is to hang on to myself while I disclose the fact that this woman's gushing over a guy (and his body and his sexual moves) was making me feel a little irritated due to the issues we are working on. I don't think it's wrong to mention that (while I should be strong and immune) it was making me feel off awkward. I mean seriously, I don't want to suppress feelings and I don't think there is anything too wrong with leaving the room and finding a quiet place to read.
We'll see if it has any effect. The trick is keeping my mind soothed, and myself validated, and maintaining my "center".
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Ok folks,
I brought up my "emotional state" and "held on" ok. I think the thing that really bugged me about this situation is the fact that the guy had said some terribly hurtful things to her last time and she swore she never wanted to talk to him again. It was painful to see her violate herself so bad. We both tried to talk her out of going over to his place and my W even used a "if your daughter was treated bad, would you encourage her to.....". Sorry to be wasting time on her...I'll get back to me in a second. I told her that once naked, she needs to grab onto his nuts with a firm grip, whisper in his ear "...if you want this to go any further, I need an apology right now".
Ok, back to me.
In the midst of my discussion with my W later that evening, I told W I was also irritated by the fact that this neighbor could "have sex whenever she wanted, and that it reminds me of the fact that I have virtually no control over my sex life". Ok, that was a shot fired across the bow and maybe not the right thing to say, but hey, I was feeling that way and I was pretty fearless about it...bygones. W quickly retorted "you do" (have control) and I said "how?" and she said "I'm not even going to entertain this discussion and walked upstairs to take her shower. I went up and read PM (the infamous chapter 11).
When she got out of the shower, I didn't push the subject because it was simply too late at night to engage. She said "I was thinking...maybe I shouldn't have invited <divorced friend> to come over". I replied "I have no problem with her coming over. I like her company usually. It's just that tonight she was bugging the crap out of me." She replied "oh, I though you were mad at me for something". And finally "It's not about you...I can feel irritated". Now this board unfortunately doesn't do justice to the intonation and subtleties of an argument. It was much "quieter and calm" than I'm making it sound here. Anyway, I didn't have any desire to make her more calm or receive any validation or any comfort from her. Like playing baseball, I was simply "pitching" my feelings without holding up my glove to catch anything (maybe I covered my nuts to protect them from getting hit...just kidding). So I got up and kept reading chapt. 11. I also drafted some ideas of what I want to talk about in C. Like when Peter (from PM) finally told Audry to "sh!t or get off the pot", I drafted a statement like that which is designed to give her a 2 choice dilemma. I'm not ready to pull this one out yet and I'm even hesitant to share it here right now.
Anyway, this morning she came over to my side of the bed, snuggled up really closely, rub her hand on my bum and I turned myself just so slightly to encourage a grope and she gave me about a minute of touching on mr. happy. Note that it's her period right now so I knew nothing would come of it. Plus, her mother is in our house this weekend...double whammy.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Unless she's one of those women who practically hemorrhages every month, having your period is just an excuse. HD women easily get around this problem through creative use of diaphragms and sponges you can get at natural food stores or by doing it in the shower.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Unless she's one of those women who practically hemorrhages every month, having your period is just an excuse. HD women easily get around this problem through creative use of diaphragms and sponges you can get at natural food stores or by doing it in the shower.
Trust me, I would be lucky to have her agree to sex when everything is "perfect"...I'll eventually push this issue but right now, I respecting this one quirk of hers. The shower thing is a completely different issue that was a topic in therapy. She won't shower w me at all. She claims "I'm not a 'naked' person...I never have been and I never will be" (as in 'i don't enjoy being naked' ever in any circumstance). What's funny about this declarative statement, is that she is saying it more frequently like she's trying to get sympathy for her LD based on her discomfort with being naked.
Note that I don't wear a watch or any jewelry except my wedding ring and I've never liked wearing any jewelry (and she has known this about me since we dated). I'm getting really close to taking my wedding ring off and saying "I'm not a jewelry guy...I've never liked wearing jewelry and I never will". I know this sounds really harsh and mean because it's a "symbol" of our marriage but her being "naked" in front of me is a symbol of our marriage too.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
If you like wearing your wedding ring, wear your wedding ring. If you don't like wearing it because it does not reflect who you are and what you stand for, take it off. Leave your wife and the fact that 'she knows you don't like jewelery' out of it.
Gawd...I have missed this board this week. I dusted off my copy of PM and started reading it again, so I can be a part of this. I still have one more week of Executive Leadership Seminar, but here's the weird thing: the stuff I'm learning in there applies to work and HOME (aka wife). I'll tell you more when I have time.
I have read through all of this thread, and will go to the others as time permits. It kind of feels like when you go off to college, and then come home to your old town and everything has changed during your absence. I miss you guys.
Just a note: for some reason, my fellow classmates at the seminar think I'm funny. Can't figure that one out.
Hairdog, who thinks backing up will cause tire damage.
It's interesting to me that your LD wife says that she is not a "naked" person because I feel like I am not a clothes person. I am comfortable with the way I look naked but when I start dressing myself I invariably ruin the effect and end up looking like either a refridgerator box or far too slutty to go to the PTO meeting. This probably has something to do with the fact that my mother is a "shopaholic" and so I despise going to the mall. My poor daughter has to drag me there twice a year to meet her needs.My LDH is constantly bemoaning my "garage sale" style and is probably one of the few men in America who has to nag at his wife to get her to spend money on clothes.
I can't walk around the house naked because I have adolescent children and a many windowed house on a busy street, so I'm going to make an effort to try and find some clothes I can feel sexy and comfortable with. I keep telling my sisters to nominate me for "What Not to Wear" LOL
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm not sure if you missed my point about the ring (or maybe I missed your point). The truth is that I don't mind wearing the ring and if I didn't wear it 100% of the time, I would probably loose it. Secondly, my W would probably say "fine...then don't wear it if you don't want to wear it". My point isn't about trying to change her into someone who likes to be naked and technically I shouldn't be trying to make her change at all. However....oh man, I need to repeat this a few more times....and I shouldn't be trying to make her change at all...and I shouldn't be trying to make her change at all...and I shouldn't be trying to make her change at all. inhale...exhale....oh corri, never mind I'm full of sh!t.
The constant pain of confronting myself is very hard to take and something inside me wants to fight it to the death. It keeps trying to divert my attention onto others instead of myself. I'm fighting this with all my might but at some points I just get weak. These last few posts from last night and this morning where done when I was exhausted. Now, I'm feeling strong again and keep a watch on myself better.
What's really funny about this whole process is that I'm seeing signs of progress in the relationship when my W is tired or drunk. I show signs of "backsliding" when I'm tired or drunk. She's been getting really affectionate with me during these times. The other day, when I was feeling strong and she was unleashing endless ILYs, I was actually annoyed. I think I'm on the right track. I still get episodes of "stinkin thinkin'". I might not have seen this pattern in myself without you all calling B.S. on me at various times of the day.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
