Quote: I also think you have an unrealistic idea about how differentiated your W is. The book makes the point repeatedly that we always choose a partner at the same level of differentiation. Unless she found a way to increase her differentiation without knowing what she was doing (which is possible), your W is pretty much on the same level as you.
I want to ad something to what Tim says, because I also feel you have an unrealistic view of how differentiated she is. I think it's pretty simple to tell that by the way she reacts to the changes in you. It's as the book says the more you change the more the other will react...try and keep you from changing. The incident in bed one night where she got upset when you expected sex after she had earlier agreed to it. Her initial response to you was not that of a differentiated person.
If she were a more differentiated person her response to the problems you are having over the lack of sex would be different. She would be more flexible than rigid. She would be able to compensate your desires with her beliefs about herself....the "I'm not a naked person" thing is a good example
I'm not saying you should feel better because your wife seems to be struggling with the same issues as you BUT be more intuned to her responses and less concerned about what she is thinking or feeling. Her reactions will tell you a lot.
I haven't read the book, only this thread but from what I have read I would think that a differentiated person who has a true sense of self would be more able to intergrate their beliefs, feelings and needs in a way that would benefit both partners. From what you say about your wife she is not able to do that so far.
Tim, thank you for your response to my question the other day. I have more to say on that subject but life keeps getting in my way. Cathy
I have more to say on that subject but life keeps getting in my way.
Life has a way of doing that, Cathy. Take your time. I had to go back to the previous page to remind myself what you had asked, and what I had said in reply. I find it interesting that the quote (from the book) that you opened your post with is something I saw the truth of this morning (see my latest post in my "Beginning" thread). W reacted EXACTLY that way, which tell me I'm on the right track. This evening I will be telling her WHY I think this book is so important, and why I think it explains so much about the process of marriage. I won't be INSISTING that she read it with me, but I'll be telling her I think it is important that she do so, because I will be making some changes in myself and in our relationship, and if she's reading this book along with me as I read it again, then she will have a better understanding of those changes, and of my motivations for making them. I think that will help. I'm hoping she will take me up on that...
I'll throw in a third to all this. Dave, remember that differentiation will probably be a painful process for BOTH parties. To feel anxious, unsure, confused... those are the feelings du jour, buddy. Just because you are reading the book and are the 'active' one in seeking solutions, doesn't mean you aren't going to feel the anxiety related to becoming your own person.
If you WEREN'T feeling anxious and confused, then I'd go along with Schnarch and say you weren't changing enough.
When I was in MC with my H, and my shrink had pounded into my very stubborn brain the concepts of boundaries and being 'myself,' in the relationship... you know, in the C sessions, I'd feel all gung ho about it. It is quite another thing to 'do it on your own,' and my shrink didn't do a darn thing to come into rescue me, either. This is because (as the book talks about), fused people may attempt to transfer their 'fusion' to their shrink... and the shrink has to maintain a certain distance and aloofness to discourage this type of behavior.
Well. I wouldn't say that I'm a whimpy person, but that whole setting boundaries thing... and then sticking to them was pure hell. Now I will say that during this process, my shrink strongly, strongly encouraged me to define for myself Who I Was, what made ME happy (independent of anyone else), how I thought about things, etc. When I actually started applying what he taught me, I understood why.
When you 'disengage' from your partner, it tends to leave a gaping hole in your emotional fabric. It helped me to really examine myself with nothing and no one else in that scenario. I had actually thought I knew myself pretty well... come to find out, I didn't really know myself at all... at least not the person I had become. Does that make any sense?
You are experiencing the pain of seperation, I think. Right now, you are trying to convince yourself to chuck the whole thing and just 'give up,' because at least in the midst of 'chaos,' you know your role, and how to handle it. THIS, THIS feels completely foreign and nasty...
Welcome to the open seas. And I really hate to throw salt into the wound, but guess what? YOU are the only person who is going to be able to decide if you are being 'too harsh,' or just holding firm your yourself.... 'cuz that's what thinking for yourself and being your own person means... it's the pain of growing. Doesn't it absolutely suck?
You're doing fine, Dave. You don't need to slow down, you just need to cut yourself some slack... and apply those self-comfort techniques you've been reading about. Hang in there guy. You'll get it. You take care of you. Let your W take care of herself.
Oh, and Dave, try to resist the urge to measure your success based upon W's actions... there is absolutely NO WAY to determine how she will respond to all of this... except to know that she will change. How she at first will resist this is impossible to guess. She could become way, way more calm and 'seem' incredibly sure of herself. Fine. That's great. Keep going. Don't let that 'throw' you. Stay focused solely on you for a time (that really is okay to do you know), and stay true to your new course.
I'm feeling more recharged today. I was just really tired last night before I wrote that post.
Actually, before my post, I had just gotten done asking if my W had any ideas about her reaction and behavior the other night. This was more of an exercise in HOTM (holding on to myself) than me looking for insight. I just wanted to bring up a topic that she typically tries to "shut down" asap. As expected, she got really pissy when she tried to answer it. Especially when I asked about why she tried to keep her clothes on after she agreed to cuddle naked. Her response "you know I'm not a 'naked person'". I tried to comfort her by saying "you don't need to get all upset by this...I'm just asking you the question of whether you had some ideas about the way things transpired." Her response was "I would be a lot less upset if you would stop bugging me". Needless to say, I kept very aware of my "inner calm" and held my resolve until we ran out of material to work with. I could have just "dug" into her to come up with more insight but that would have been just sadistic because my whole intention was to "practice" HOTM. I felt sorry for her that she couldn't come up with anything more insightful.
I know that I should technically wait until the end of the book before doing anything but I've done "nothing" for so long that it actually feels very good to "exercise my legs" (though it's tiring). Also, my C told me that I need to practice putting her feet to the flames on issues I care about. I think practicing at least once a day isn't too extreme. Just a side note...in the 10 years of marriage, we have never had a "heated" argument or fight.
As far as your observations about my W's differentiation, I know you guys are right. I'm seeing subtle signs of her changing in other aspects of her life. She used to be obsessive about the cleanliness of the house but "little" things are starting to slide and I'm picking up this slack. I'm also trying to understand why she doesn't thank me anymore for the AOS I have been doing. It might be payback for the thankless years of her taking care of everything. If that's the case, then I'm happy to let her have her retribution. Better there than in the bedroom.
In general, these little signs of change are encouraging and give me energy to keep working.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Corri, I hate to ask, but I feel like I could really use some feedback from you in my "Beginning" thread...
Not sure what I'm looking for from you, except that I'm not working with a C at the moment, and not sure if I'd be able to find one competant with this Schnarch stuff, so I'm hoping you'll be able to help me add to my insights...
You, (and now everybody else too ), are doing it again . Example:
Quote: I'm also trying to understand why she doesn't thank me anymore for the AOS I have been doing. It might be payback for the thankless years of her taking care of everything. If that's the case, then I'm happy to let her have her retribution. Better there than in the bedroom.
It may have absolutely nothing to do with you. There may be no sinister motive or anything behind it. Stop making every aspect of her behavior "about you." You're not her puppeteer (how many "t's" in that word?).
Question for you to think about: What does all this examining and analyzing her do for you? What do you get out of it that keeps you doing it?
General set of heuristics that I think works well: Give my spouse the benefit of the doubt. Save my microanalysis for myself. Give myself frequent breaks from microanalysis.
Whoa MPT...thank you for pointing that out and making it so simple. Posting my thoughts is a great way to see where I'm repeating bad patterns and I'm grateful that you are around to catch them. I'd say so far you are batting 1000. I might need to fire my shrink.
Quote:
Give my spouse the benefit of the doubt. Save my microanalysis for myself. Give myself frequent breaks from microanalysis.
I should write this on my wall. I struggle with this over-analyzing thing so much...it's why I'm good at my work.
-Dave (who really should be thanking his W more for all things she does)
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
The "therapist cop-out response"!
), are doing it again 
.