Cadet--indeed... that is why i worded it the way i did... "as far as the world is concerned," he is an above average decent man... he is not what doodler or hoosjim describe as the OM: no job, out of shape, substance abuser, broken family, etc... he doesn't have the exterior of a "loser," a "trade-down." as far as the world can tell, (and the world did not know he was a cheater) he is a decent guy...
Well my point is that affair down is normal but of course I agree that even the CEO of General Electric could have an affair and has been known to do that.
Gordie... i too did a lot of what your wife has done... did what i could to "play family." while i was doing it, it seemed like the best of both worlds... but as i started reading these threads, i saw it from another point of view... that it was me trying to live two lives... and i could see that there was a phoniness in it... i would go back to the marital home and cook meals for my husband and sons, so they could have access to food while i was away living my own life... i would do laundry for my sons when i moved back from the opposite coast because i felt guilty for the time i was away... we would even have "family dinner" on Sundays...
Wow, yes. Stbx doesn’t see D as end of the family. She wants me and family and OM2. No matter what I say and do, don’t think she will “get it” until after the D is final and we aren’t living together anymore though she now says she is questinging herself.
I am a WAW, I essentially walked (no ran) at the end, there was nothing wayward in me at all. I have never been tempted and actually have never felt as you describe.
I think to me this demonstrates the difference as a WAW I decided there was no way I was going back to an abusive R. I was out at the spell break point. Until that point if the Giggalo had got his act together I would have worked and stood with all my ability to turn it around.
I admire those who struggle with the waywardness and get a grip on it. Those with low impulse control who get it together, those with 'issues' who sort it.
Only reality biting seems to resolve it or getting real.
Don't get me wrong I am no saint, I am a workaholic who can be very neglectful of their R. And for a brief while a screaming banshee. A truly horrible reactive abusive person not that makes a difference to the abuse of the Giggalo. He liked abusing and future faking. And screaming banshee gave him great satisfaction.
Changing down isn't about resources or addictions but about spirit, values and beliefs. What type of person will cheat with a cheater? What values do they have?
For me, no thank you. Cheating is a big deal breaker. I can't rationalise or minimise it. I will not have it in my R or my life. Knickers don't accidentally fall off and oops how did that sexual encounter occur? And oral isn't sex right? Cheating is in the mind or body or both. Morally dubious behaviour. So who hasn't been tempted? Hmmmmmm, Liam where are you?
And adultery is sleeping with someone other than your spouse before you are D. Learn that definition Giggalo! Deciding you might want to be D isn't the same as being D.
Happy family is a personna, a fake one and an illusion designed for cake eating on a grand scale.
So what makes a WAW not a Cheater but a WW wayward? It's not thoughts but actions. Even in an EA there is longing and physical reaction.
There is NO excuse for cheating in either body or in preparation of the mind for cheating. An EA is the preparation of the mind for cheating intending on a physical fact.
Cheating is rotten behaviour or preparation for rotten behaviour and I have no truck with it at all. But then I haven't really ever been tempted and I guess I never will.
It is OK to escape a rotten M, not stay in an abusive M (and I include being cheated on) and also to stand, DB and work in any way to get a mistracked R back on track. It is not OK to cheat, lie and misrepresent yourself.
For this reason I think DBers need INTEL to determine if they are dealing with a wayward or a walkaway. What has to be done, the focus is different.
At the end of it, it is working on numero uno that gets you to either release or rebuild. A wayward can always find someone to be wayward with but what type is that? If the wayward lies to the POP then when uncovered the POP will dump the wayward.
So it's excellent you gave yourself the spell break shift. Gives you an unique insight into the wayward which is valuable. But a wayward isn't a walkaway.
It is my view that walkaway marriages are more likely to heal than wayward ones.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Vanilla... thank you for your time and attention... i concur... a WW (wayward) is not a WAW (Walk Away)... i am of the WW ilk... as Hank Williams Sr. crooned, "a cheatin' heart..." a coward... unless my life were in danger, i don't think i would ever have the guts to be a WAW...
Changing down isn't about resources or addictions but about spirit, values and beliefs. What type of person will cheat with a cheater? What values do they have?
yes--i get that... but the question that was posed to me was not done in this spirit... the previous comments were all about the OM being a "loser," as far as the eye can see... the descriptions were physical and included addictions and resources--"tow truck driver," which to me does not indicate anything, really... one of the most wonderful families i know is headed by the husband/father, who is a tow truck driver... he is a loyal, hardworking, man of faith...
but i knew what was being asked of me in the trade-down question... and i answered it honestly... by worldly standards, no i did not trade down... and neither did he...
I think this should be a case of divided in the same language
A wayward may be a 'loser' or maybe not. A wayward certainly loses in the end. If not just by losing part of their integrity.
What you are saying is brave, waywards get litter sympathy on this board. Dynamics in each M are different.
So let's have this scenario, there are few waywards on this board more deliberately entitled wayward than the Giggalo. And of course his wayward behaviour was my fault. The Giggalo trades up in his long term partner but down with his cheating partners. He uses up the resources especially money of the long term then moves (or is booted) on. He may even marry but it's not for love.
I could have chosen to cheat or commit adultery. In doing so could have traded up in terms of partner with resources. And actually I doubt many would have blamed me. In fact after S and before D, I still considered it adultery. Maybe not wayward or unfaithful but certainly adultery. I didn't cheat, I walked. I ceased to stand.
Any one I could have cheated with is likely to be a trade up from the G. Almost anyone. But it is still a trade down, a loss, from the partner I want and need. So a loser? Oh yes definitely, not maybe in terms of job, material wealth etc but in terms of values? Certainly.
If you read my story then you will know about aged pa, an ordinary man who was truly extraordinary.
So I think we agree on the fact that wealth or lack of it may not mean a loser. But it may.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
yes--i get that... but the question that was posed to me was not done in this spirit... the previous comments were all about the OM being a "loser," as far as the eye can see... the descriptions were physical and included addictions and resources--"tow truck driver," which to me does not indicate anything, really... one of the most wonderful families i know is headed by the husband/father, who is a tow truck driver... he is a loyal, hardworking, man of faith...
Yeah, that was pretty short-sighted of me, especially coming from me-- a child of a family born of humble roots. My Grandfather actually got his start as a truck driver, and my W's family was VERY blue-collar... her dad worked in a steel mill into his 70s. I meant no affront to the profession itself (though obviously I gave one) and, especially due to my and my wife's roots absolutely do understand the value and honor in a hard day's work... just that this particular one is what you consider, well, the archetypal (albeit perhaps unfair, yes) one, and is absolutely NOT a hard worker and spends a lot of his time just knocking around in bars drinking beer.
Sorry if I gave any offense, though...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
