How much closer are you to getting real DESIRE from her. Duty sex does not count for anything in my book. Is it even possible to get to a "Passionate Marriage" when the LD has no desire? Like I have said before, it's not the sex, it's not the frequency, it is all about the DESIRE for sex. The Desire is the Passsion, not the actual act itself. Our wifes must WANT to have sex and affection, and without help from us, to really have any level of passion. If we have to ASK for sex, then the whole moment is lost! I want to have 2-3 hour love making sessions, not 5 minutes let's take care of you crap!
Quote: She melted and became very sweet to me. We talked a little bit more about the fact that she can say "no" or say "let's just cuddle", or "let's MB together", or "quiet union", or "manual" etc. I let her know that my request to ML is a bid for deeper intimacy. We both got really relaxed then.
CeMar, believe it or not, that is REAL progress. It doesn't all happen overnight, but believe me, the scene he described above was a HUGE win for both of them!
Dave, I want to ask you to expand on your assertion that you no longer feel rejection. How is this possible and is this even a realistic goal to strive for?
I read PM, but it was a few years ago and it was about one month into our attempts to fix our marriage. We were so new to the process that my focus when I was reading it was "getting more sex" (to be honest) instead of repairing the relationship. So I must admit that my grasp of PM is not that great anymore. Nothing to compare to you Schnarch-ians!
So my understanding was not that one doesn't feel rejection anymore, but it's more in what you do with those feelings. Are you able to self soothe? Do you then (for the next few days) pursue your partner, looking for validation of yourself? Etc.
So can you explain that further to me?
Also, I love your going to sleep method! That would be right up my alley. H and I used to, when first married, fall asleep with each other's genitals in our hands. Not stroking or anything, just cupped there. It was so soothing and relaxing and not sexual, really, at all. Intimacy incarnate. Then it dropped off and I recently asked him to start doing it again. He said that he would love to, but he was afraid that it would "get me going". I assured him that I know the difference between the nights when he is giving off sexual signals and those when he is wanting to relax and go to sleep. If he then slips his hand under me (I sleep on my stomach, or try to these days) I will not get a mistaken impression and think that he's starting something. I DO know the difference, it's just that sometimes I try to take an innocent action and turn it into something less innocent!
Have a good day and good for you for setting a boundary with your wife and keeping it! You did great! (How's that for validation, ha haaaa)
tim BTW, that idea of yours of how to fall asleep is something I've never HEARD of before, much less thought about! Talk about self-control
This is the second time I tried it. The first time, I couldn't control myself and had to pull out. This time I simply said to myself "let her sleep, you got to connect with her, just relax because you can take care of business later with the fab-5".
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How much closer are you to getting real DESIRE from her? Duty sex does not count for anything in my book.
The "differentiated self" gives a new context to "duty sex" on the part of the LDW. When they are absolutely certain that they have the option of saying "no" without fear of hurting your feelings etc. and they see that YOU want to ML because you WANT them versus NEED them to "soothe" you, "validate" you or give you "an emotional crutch" (pathetic isn't sexy). I'm sure I'm going to be "duty sex" alot for a while but instead of letting it bother me, I'm simply going be myself and not be scared to ask for sex when I want it. A few weeks ago I would have rather not initiated if I knew it was duty sex. Now it's different. If my W is given the freedom to "choose" by me not being "needy" then her "yes" will have new meaning to herself. In other words..."duty implies the existence of need" while my "wanting and her choosing implies that she too wanted". Get it? I'll repeat this again. When your LDW has complete freedom to choose without fear, then their agreement is no longer "duty" but rather "acceptance". It will be their choice to bring their "good mindset" or their "bad mindset" into the bedroom. Eventually your LDW will "hear themselves" rejecting or accepting your bids Rejection in this context gives them "anxiety" instead of "guilt"...their "anxiety" will lead them to change. I think that's how it works...maybe. It's darn complex but it's starting to make sense.
Do I see her getting any real "desire" back yet? A little bit. Like I said last week, she got drunk and initiated (first time in 8 years to initiate). She said "yes" to last night and I gave her multiple chances to say no. She desired the marriage enough to say "yes"...the "head" she brings to bed is her own problem. Eventually she won't like the "head" she's bringing into the bedroom and she will confront herself. That's how it will work.
I hope this makes sense.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Dave, I want to ask you to expand on your assertion that you no longer feel rejection. How is this possible and is this even a realistic goal to strive for? So my understanding was not that one doesn't feel rejection anymore, but it's more in what you do with those feelings. Are you able to self soothe?
I think it's very realistic and will have great benefit outside the home. I've looked at my past and am working through all the reasons I'm so terrified of rejection. My entire life would be different if I wasn't. I've always been a non-confrontational wussy. Why? Because of reflected sense of self...I don't want to rock the boat because I assume I'm in it with whoever I'm dealing with. We each stand in our own boats. Sorry for the cryptic answer.
My C keeps telling me to think "it's not about me". This means that once I stop acting like it's my problem (when it's not) then my W will be alone with it. What she is really saying is that my "increased differentiation" will cause my partner's "differentiation" to rise to an equal level. Had my W caved into my pathetic attempts to fuse last week, we would have been in big trouble, but she stuck to herself when I was week which forced me to pick myself back up. (wow...I just realized that...I'm going to thank her). My co-ownership of the problem has obscured the fact that it is solely hers to deal with and that I really won't be able to help.
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Do you then (for the next few days) pursue your partner, looking for validation of yourself? Etc.
Absolutely not. If I experience rejection, I'll deal with it (if I even allow myself to acknowledge it). Then the next day, if she is looking cute again and being nice, I ask to ML again. It's not to validate myself...it's because I want to ML to her. Her constant denial will not be without consequence but it will give me a different footing when I confront her about it. I can then be empathetic to "her problem" instead of whining about mine.
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I DO know the difference, it's just that sometimes I try to take an innocent action and turn it into something less innocent!
That was very hard not to do last night to my sleeping W. I'm hoping she will have a new degree of trust that I can control myself. That will probably take some time.
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Have a good day and good for you for setting a boundary with your wife and keeping it! You did great! (How's that for validation, ha haaaa)
Thank you!! "Validation from others" becomes "a gift" when you are capable of validating yourself. I'm working on it. I think a month or so of discpline will lead to habit.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Hey AD, With respect to your analysis, if you want to really differentiate, only analyze yourself, not your W. Unless you ask her and/or she tells you what is going on inside her, you do not know. You can note behavior change that you see. All else, such as feelings, motivations, thought processes, is pure speculation on your or anyone else's part.
Has your wife ever asked you to talk to *her* about what's going on with her? If I were her, I would've. Only she can teach you about her. I expect you will develop a deep intimacy and learn much about her, if she speaks for herself.
I think you are definitely on the right track with yourself. Glad you found something that seems to work for you!
Best wishes, MPT, who reads and posts too sporadically to be paid much attention to
Oh man...I got busted by the lurking MPT. Thanks...that was a "right on" excellent point. Some of these behaviors are so ingrained in us that it's almost impossible to see them and I even told my C to "kick my ass" if I do / say stuff like this.
Hopefully this board will augment my therapy enough so that I don't have to pay for sessions that my insurance won't cover.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Folks, I'm overcooked. The following is just mindless rambling. PM is truly great but it's a mind bender. Just when you think you've got the gist, he puts one more layer on top. It's getting tiring. I've heard of meditation "texts" that supposedly confuse you to a point that you have moments of epiphany...I'm starting to think this qualifies. I don't want to dissuade anyone from reading it. We could theoretically become pretty decent, self-taught counselors by collaborating on the contents of this here and playing scenarios like we've been doing.
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From Passionate Marriage pg. 202 ...differentiation doesn't occur unless you do something. (Don't kid yourself that just reading this book will free you or your marriage from the shackles of fusion.). Differentiation involves taking a stand that defines you and, at first at least, may evoke ominous responses from your partner. You are likely to hear accusations such as "You're making a mistake" or "You'll destroy our relationship" more than once before the benefits kick in. Becoming more differentiated doesn't mean that the stand you take is "right". It means the stand you take is yours and that you are responsible for your actions.
After reading this, I realized why Tim is taking some time to "digest it". I need to as well. I'm not sure what I'm going to do in the meantime. Lately, she has increased her declarative statements about her persona. Things like "I'm just not a 'naked' person and I never have been". She told this to the C who said "...but you were born naked". She even repeated this one tonight out of the context of what we were talking about. It was weird. To some degree, her ability to hang onto herself might be being challenged by me and she's waging a subconscious battle to keep her identity while I'm sort of raising my differentiation. She's starting to "bumble" for the first time. This might be progress. I'm just wondering if the next time she says "I'm not a naked person", I should say "I'm not really a TV watcher" and henceforth let her sit alone at night.
What's really tricky with my W is that she "appears" very differentiated but it's more likely "disinterested", I've got to find the most effective way to shake the tree. There's something "just not right" in our sitch and I haven't figured it out yet. Last night I dreamt that I was hanging around college friends and someone confirmed to me that my W was gay. This triggered me to wake but not before seeing one last image in my dream. I was standing on the edge (or on top of the water) of a lake. There was no horizon or sky. Just water. In the middle of the water was a white, thin obelisk. I have no idea what it meant, especially after the previous dream. Thinking that she is gay is a definitely a "cop-out" to addressing myself but maybe my brain was trying to tell me to take a break. I welcome any attempts to analyze this.
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From Passionate Marriage pg. 180 And in a strange, predictable, and wonderful way, the pressure went up on Warren but not in the relationship
It feels like this is happening with us a little bit but it feels like I've been applying "blunt-force" with slight effect. I hope I can find greater efficiency as I get more experienced.
I think I might need to consolidate my margin-marks, starts, and underlines into a sheet of notes and review them.
I like being challenged but it get's tiring. I just wrote a sentence that was really "braggish" about my technical capacities and how I worry that my W will have a much harder time with this book...then I realized I was self-validating myself through my occupation. This constant "monitoring" is tiring. Maybe I can temper it somehow...mmmm beer.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, I think you're trying to go too fast. Yes that will lead to burnout. One reason I blasted all the way through the book was I wanted to see if I could grasp at least a "shell" of the "whole thing", and in case there were any caveats late in the book about how to or how not to approach it. There are. So maybe you might want to consider finishing the WHOLE book before worrying too much about how to proceed. Also talk with the C. I also think you have an unrealistic idea about how differentiated your W is. The book makes the point repeatedly that we always choose a partner at the same level of differentiation. Unless she found a way to increase her differentiation without knowing what she was doing (which is possible), your W is pretty much on the same level as you. If she is more highly differentiated, that may be one of the reasons for your discomfort. As for your W possibly being gay, I think you need to really confront yourself on why you are so afraid of this. You seem to worry about it constantly. Or maybe not constantly, but regularly. Why? I'm not gonna even try to guess why you would dream about this, then immediately about a phallic symbol... Chill for a bit, regroup...
