Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[hoosjim]

Sandi, if you are out there and still talking to me...

You kind of danced around it, but finally said she did commit. Are you currently saying that it was all half-a$$ed on her part?

I am coming to the realization that it may be all half-a$$ed on her part based on the evaluations that you kind folks are offering. I believed she was truly "in", but the things she is saying now seem at least a little equivocal: "I am willing to try and i think these things are probably possible given what MC is telling us, but I also am saying that I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

However, I am having a bit of a frustrating moment (after reading your recent posts) wondering how much you were pushing and just how much she truly was on board...

Not sure i understand the point of the question. In some sense, they are all "pushed", yes? In TXHubby's case by the prospect of him leaving, in your case by the prospect of your kids finding out. In my case it was the prospect of losing me (or at least her marriage) and her kids, and possibly the respect of her family. (Note that this is my take and not entirely based on what she has said... see my post on this in the previous thread in response to Ginger's query). When I "took her back" after that final confrontation, we had a talk, where i made it clear that i was only "back" for one reason.. that she had come clean about the phone (yes, under some duress-- i asked her what we would find if we searched the online phone records, but she never had to hand it over physically and I am not the type to forcefully physically take something from a woman.) I laid out my boundary-- I would not share her with another man, or in any way shape or form with OM. Any more contact and I would be gone. I also told her what my conditions for "working on figuring things out with hoosjim" (which is how she had put it when she was telling OM goodbye). Those conditions included seeking professional help (counselling), putting our R first over any others (I had bff in mind specifically, here, but i also meant this some in reference to our kids, about whom i told her i expected our relationship to be given at least equal importance and time, and some type of transparency (and, yes, i was not as specific here as I should have been, though i did say i needed to know where she was-- and so she enabled the tracking of her phone which has remained on ever since).

I know she fears losing the kids, and I think she remembers me saying i would be reluctant to lie to them if asked by them about the A... something she took as a "threat" initially but which i retraced on, explaining that i would not be "outing" her to them in a vacuum, but, if asked (and at the time i suspected that my S18 suspected something) it would be very hard for me to lie to them to further her A. So maybe that's some coercion here? Idunno.

I have been the one to make all the MC appointments. She has gone, willingly, and things have pretty uniformly been "Better" between us following the sessions but, yes, I have had to take the initiative here, though she has been receptive on all but on occasion where she balked a bit, ostensibly because of her work schedule. That actually resulted in a bit of a tif where I reminder her i wanted this to have "priority" and she got REALLY upset in the next MC session saying "so you dont think i am making this a priority It's practically all i think about all day every day, and oh by the way while Im trying to survive a 60 hour work week!" (which was not actually what i had been trying to say... i hadn't meant to say she wasnt working on it, just that we needed to make it "A" priority along with other things--- in particular a school function that she had said we needed to go to for our younger boy that week that conflicted.

I have on probably three or four occasions asked her if she is "all in" or how committed she is. She has typically gotten pretty defensive about this and said "I am doing everything you want" or "This is pretty much all i think about 24/7, of course i am committed to it". And then, most recently, what i posted above and in my last thread from the MC session on 12/6.

FWIW, MC has said repeatedly that if W has not "fully given up the relationship with the OM, there is no point in 'working on' anything. She has also said we both need to be committed to restoring our relationship, and she seems to think that W is committed enough to it at the present time. But i have my doubts. My W's "Right now I just don't see those things happening between us or how they could" keeps echoing around in my head... along with her and OM's graphic sexual talk.

Dont know if all that answers your Q. Maybe with some more color from the MC session below...

I learn she never put her wedding ring back on........which is a sign of rebellion, IMHO.

Look, this wedding ring thing really has me wrapped around the axle. I never even thought of that angle. Well, a little, but the fact that MINE had been off (I simply lost it and had no way to put it back on) for months before she took hers off kind of defused me. Id wanted to hold onto that for if we reconciled... new rings, etc., but it honestly never occured to me that her keeping them off under the circumstances (me missing mine AND having told her I would probably want new rings and vows) was anything to worry about. Now, you've really gotten me worried about it. But not really sure how to broach or handle it!

I asked you to see how she responded in the recent MC. Did the MC assign more homework? What was W's attitude during the session? How did she act on the way home? Did she seem distant, in deep thought, texting, cold, or encouraged and talkative?

We only did an hour, much of which consisted of discussing the kiss, its setup, and our reactions to it. Also talked about the trip to Store X and then some about affair addictiveness and recovery and then scheduling and the importance of REGULAR sessions.

W responded well enough. She left work early, sounded stressed on the ride home when she called me that she might be late, participated in the discussion, seemed comfortable with the MC (perhaps moreseo than at any time in the past-- joking and laughing with her on a couple of occasions) and made noise like she was more likely to consult her for IC than she had in past... said "I almost picked up the phone twice this week to call her, then didn't." (and please don't say im rationalizing here... im just reporting what she said)

W was defensive still about the trip to the store, saying again that she did it because she didnt want to be afraid to go places. MC cautioned her that this was a delicate time and that it could have hurt both me and W and our MR had W run into OM... also that trust was an important component here and had W considered how that affected my trust for her (though she did say W did the right thing by fessing up after the fact). W granted how she could see that was so. Didn't sound sulky or pouty or anything when saying it.

WRT the kiss, my initial recollection may have been a BIT harsh. W related the story, saying she had asked me "well what would you do with another girl in a similar situation" rather than saying "why don't you just do what you want to do" (which is how i'd remembered it but, on reflection-- and remember i was 6 or 7 drinks gone that night-- i think W's recollection was closer to the mark, if not exactly on. In that case, I elected to demonstrate rather than explain. W said she did not really expect me to kiss her, though she wondered if I would and said how she could see that, especially under the drunken circumstances, it could come across as goading or as an invitation. She also said she did not ask that question intending to gauge WON "There would be sparks", but that that was something she thought about only afterwards. Finally, we apparently talked alittle after the kiss, with me immediately saying "wow, that was weird" (I am SUCH an idiot.)

There was no homework other than to continue reading in the book and to meet with her next week. Also to talk about scheduling after the new year, where MC said we should really try to do intensives once every 4-6 weeks since we seemed to get our best progress out of those, plus they are FTF (our other sessions are typically skyped). W concurred that we probably needed to meet more frequently since we seemed to lose momentum between visits if too much time elapsed, and since we both seemed to feel better immediately after visits, and she was agreeable to the idea of regular intensives.

We talked for a bit after the session on our own. Some about the physical intimacy (she's really wondering how we get there and does NOT feel comfortable with the idea of doing that with me righ tnow.)
Also talked about bff (who IS moving to Fla next month... HOORAY!!!!) and about how that relationship would somehow have to be reconciled with ours, if both were to be maintained. Neither of us had any answers for that puzzle, and we both had had the same thought in the past week about how we would respond if asked out to dinner by one of our respective bff's and their respective now-swapped spouses. (yeesh...like a regular frikking payton place around here.) I told her she was a grown woman and able to make her own choices on friends, but did she think that bff's friendship was supportive or damaging to our own efforts. She defended bff some, saying that she (W) was a big girl, made her own decisions, and that bff never contacted OM or did anything else in that regard that she (W) did not ask bff to do. (Which, from the pub phone call last month, we know is not completely true)

We also talked about IC... the fact that she had had some of these personal hang ups and feelings and issues even as far back as when we first met, and whether or not she felt like she would be able to be "all in" any relationship until she got those resolved. She said she didn't know but she kind of doubted it. Said she had been thinking heavily about Ic and had almost picked up phone to contact the MC twice the past week. She has in the past voiced reservations about using MC since MC is also my own IC.

Afterward, she did not seem withdrawn or mopey. Perhaps a bit energized as, for no apparent reason, she ran out and jumped in the car with me when i was going out to fill the car with gas.