I'm going to try to diagnose my situation through the eyes of Passionate Marriage and hopefully it will make sense how this approach helps you look at things.
First, a quick background. W35, Me 35, D5 married 10. Relationship 15 yrs. Knew each other for 24 yrs. NS pattern emerged immediately after marriage. I was working and putting W last on my list. We polarized and became roommates. This past Jan, W mentioned that her New Years resolution was to become more physical. I got emotionally reconnected to her with a vengence but the lack of reciprocal connection led me to doubt that we would recover. Tried all sorts of techniques from the books etc with no real progress and possibly a backslide. Her sex with me became worse and more "obliging". I got a C and she recommended Passionate Marriage. I read a random chapter (11) and it twisted my head around. Then I went back and bought it and started reading it for real and have been getting great results.
So here goes.....
I grew up in a family where we were always told we were lousy at everything and that good relationships are bound to performance. My mother actually told me once "improve your grades and you will have more friends...in my life, if I can't make friends I at least can gain their respect". Needless to say, my mom was a fierce socialite and civic leader and we all grew up in her shadow with a great deal of insecurity. She interrupted us, changed the subject while we were in the middle of talking etc. Essentially I lived a life where I was rarely validated for my thoughts because she didn't want to listen. In response I developed a louder voice and became obsessed with people "hearing" me and my points but I quickly became a part of the B-crowd in school which led me to self-loathe. Then my mom put me on ritalin and sent me to therapy which actually was ok to some degree because this therapist taught me to blow off anyone who didn't like me which provided a "pseudo-differentiation" and temporarily relieved my anxiety. I took the advice too literally and instead of become "differentiated, I simply became "disinterested". Note that I also had difficulty reading non-verbal cues from others...probably because I was so focused on myself. I also do exhibit some textbook asbergers (hyper-focus for periods) but in a very mild way. Now, don't get me wrong. I wasn't a socially crippled geek...I got girlfriends and could get laid which is when I started feeling a lot more confident about myself (danger lurks with this).
In college, I felt overly compelled to belong to a fraternity and have a group. Had troubles with the social dynamics but made some good friends. Pursued and eventually landed a girlfriend who turned out to be a complete psychotic but I can now see the dynamics in that one played out. My this point in my life, I had actually developed a pretty good "real" differentiation. I was mountain biking and going on ski trips alone and I needed very little validation. This girlfriend was an absolute fuser to the extreme. Her father had sent her to Dale Carnegie training when she was in high school and she learned how "pretend" very well. I thought we were at the same level of differentiation which is what attracted me to her. When she soon discovered that I truly had a life outside of hers, she went freaky on me to the point of whacking her head into a wall repeatedly. I transferred to a school back in Texas to get away. Whoa...wait a minute Dave. Are you omitting something? Why run? Well guess what folks? I played into her fusion thing. Sure I could go do my thing alone, but once I had a girlfriend, I was able to "share my functioning" with someone and she (in a strange way) completed me. She was also a new "mirror" for my reflected sense of self. It took very little to disassemble my differentiation when intimacy was involved especially from someone who intentionally tried to make me think I was responsible for her issues. Despite her needing my validation, I needed her validation...we imploded.
At my new college, I met a neighborhood friend and went on a date with her. I was comfortable choice for her because we had shared history and she didn't feel odd for sleeping with me on our first date. Within a week, she was practically living with me and I was happy to have a girlfriend who thought I was cool. I had a new "mirror". Now, due to my last girlfriend, I established boundaries and behaviors that my GF happily complied with. I was probably overly "pseudo-differentiated" from my last GF because I was skeptical that a GF could let me live my own life and be free to be myself. Anyway, she was very grounded, nurturing, safe yet independent and I was independent with a flair for adventure and excitement. A perfect mix. I taught her to ski and she kept me sane. After 5 years of excitement and a great sex life, we married. This added pressure to me to make the marriage work and be more careful about showing my "true self". I became a little more conservative and so did she for the same reasons. We had both dropped out of college in our 4th year and I started my own business while she worked at crappy jobs. I was able to be MUCH more successful outside of college with my hyper-focus and lack of verbal discretion (it can be an asset too). But I literally left at home while I worked 80 hours a week and W became more independent. I was getting praise for my talents and needed very little validation from W so it wasn't a priority for me to spend a lot of time with her. Actually, when PM says you marry an equally differentiated person, we were exactly that way though mine was probably pseudo-differentiation because I still relied on "other-validation".
At this point, there is already enough toxin to drop an HD woman's desire to 0 and that's exactly what happened. We polarized into a pattern where I "did my things" and she did "her things". Sex was quarterly and it was enough to get her pregnant with our daughter. Either being so engrossed in myself or little bit of the asbergers (which makes it hard to feel personal bonds), I didn't bond very well with my D5 and I kept "doing my thing". I know I'm painting myself out to be a complete a-hole, but remember that I was also very kind and cool together. Now, from the very beginning of our demise, my W *could* have said something. There's an entire story behind her issues with conflict and fear. She claims a huge responsibility now because of this. We fortunately got along great she could stand on her emotional legs while I was propped up by my career. Once again, that's just enough to kill the desire. Also, she could see that my LM and interactions were to elicit a response that validated and soothed me and that I was "giving her orgasms to make myself feel like a stud". In this pattern, we could have lasted forever and been happy. She was very content and didn't need anything from me except a little bit of infrequent attention.
Scroll forward 9 years. My company forces me to move to a home office. I am now able to "be available" to my W by mere proximity but at the same time, I set a goal to do really well in a 9 month (12 race) mountain bike race series and while I was at home, my family wasn't a priority. Work was getting weird because of reorganizations and I was no longer a "lead" on a small project but a member of a "huge" project. I was no longer the star but it was ok because I was a star in the cycling series and had a good group of friends there. The series ended in Oct. but I was looking forward to the awards in Jan. This kept me "soothed" for a couple months without the racing (imagine your W promising sex on a certain day in the future...you HD guys would be fairly relaxed too). Remember in my description of my sitch that my W wanted to become more physical? I'm absolutely certain this had to do with the fact that I was done racing and more engaged in the family Nov and Dec but still differentiated and able to self-soothe in anticipation of the awards. Guess how I felt when I was on stage accepting my award in late Jan? My validation from the racing was over, my job wasn't a source of validation either. I was freaking before I stepped off the stage. So guess where I pointed my flashlight in search of my "fix"...you guessed it. My unsuspecting W who was already quite smitten with me at that point and was quietly working on herself. I started showering her with gifts, jewelry and attention right as we went into Vday. I even got my D5 a card to gain kudos from my W. Despite awesome Vday sex and a follow up a few days later, it went downhill. Why? First of all, the pressure was huge on her. She felt me pushing while still making her feel like she was "broken" in some way. Not a sexy combination. She could also sense that all my efforts were not "choices" to engage her but rather along the lines of "paying a water bill"...that I needed her validation so badly that I was selling myself out for it. And was I ever. The LL that I started throwing at her were not seen as genuine but rather more attempts to get my props. She even started to ignore my AOS and not thank me for them...it was a completely unconscious reaction just like her loss of desire. I get to the point where I'm having tantrums over her lack of "eye-contact" and her not kissing me the right way etc. Look at my old threads here and you will see my anger. She can't be manipulated (note...I said manipulated...not inspired) at all because everything I was doing was to elicit a response that would provide me with some form of validation. I was basically fusing to soothe my anxiety over other problems in my life. My dying dad didn't help issues either and it triggered my to look at my future and quality of life.
I then made an appointment with a C and she told me about Schnarch. I read it and nearly dropped the book as I saw my patterns of my entire life exposed at this point. My Ws LD is a "natural phenomena" not because there's something wrong with her, but as a mechanism to create situations like we all are in and drive us to resolve potentially destructive personal issues. Gaining this clarity gave me clear personal goals that I can take to my C and ask for help with. I can also ask my W to help me recognize and alert me to fusing behaviors. My W is going to read PM now at the recommendation of our C. W is not completely off the hook and there's some ways that she lacks differentiation in terms of fear of "self disclosure". Those are her demons that she will have to work through herself if she wants to have meaningful relationship with me. If she doesn't, then we'll see what happens. My guess is that I will differentiate more and she will probably start to try to fuse with me unless she reads PM and accepts the coaching from our C. PM actually says this is common. You ratchet upwards including "desire".
2004 will be a significant year in my life. I might pick a date to celebrate our new marriage...maybe I'll re-propose to my W and do whole "thing". I feel that hopeful.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I can very much relate to what you say about 'feeling slutty'! I am the LD in my M. In the beginning of our R, I initiated about half of the time, if not more. I would MB in front of him, I would give him BJs everynight (and swallow!), I would be wearing sexy lingerie and waiting for him when he got home, and on and on. But somewhere along the line, I've lost all of that. I think for me what started it was when I was waiting for him, all dressed up (I even had a porno on!), but when he got home he was too tired to do anything. Boy, was I crushed! I felt so hurt and rejected. I felt like I was being 'slutty' when he rejected me. But that was my problem, not his. After that incident, I didn't want to take the chance of being rejected again, so I didn't dress up for him anymore.
Now, I realize that he loves it when I dress up for him, even if we don't end up doing anything. He loves knowing that I am doing it just for him and nobody else! So now, I'm working on not taking it personally. I'm trying to learn from what everyone is talking about; about being 'myself' and not getting my validation from anyone else, including my H.
BTW, my H has told me several times that it's okay to be 'slutty' with your SO, because it's not really being 'slutty' if you're doing it with the person you love. He wants me to be more slutty when it comes to the bedroom.
Fuzzy, Your loss of desire is a "signal" to examine things. You are so fortunate to be here now instead of 10 years from now. Marriage actually puts a little bit more pressure on you to fuse with your partner which creates a dependancy and that's enough to mess with your desire. It's really complicated and requires reading PM to understand it all.
BTW. In this thread, I have no problem just telling folks to read PM as this is what this thread is about.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: My guess is that I will differentiate more and she will probably start to try to fuse with me unless she reads PM and accepts the coaching from our C.
So... what are you challenging yourself on? What are your strategies for increasing differentiation? That's quite a life story! Many, many (too many - it's scary) parallels to mine, except for the girlfriends and getting laid part, and the success part...
I'm very glad that I did recognize the signal and order SSM, and end up here. My H has been great thru this whole thing. He has taken some responsibility for my lack of SD. Since our wedding a year ago (Apr 26 ), he has gained 50+lbs. He admitted to me just the other night that he no longer feels comfortable ML with me because of this...
(via instant messenger)H:cause I feel self concious about my weight, and dont really find it romantic when I am trying to be on top of my wife kissing her and feel like I am slapping her with belly fat and have no endurance for anything without running out of breath
I asked what I should to until he loses the weight...
H: well, the full weight loss goal doesn't have to be reached before [your] true boy pops back into the picture. As he sees the weight coming off 10 lbs at a time he'll be more excited, more energetic, and feel more sexually confident to take care of his [fish].
I think this was a great break-through for us. We are BOTH taking responsibility for the gap in our SDs. Isn't it amazing what can happen when you and your SO can finally be open and honest? I am so thankful to everyone here for helping me and my H get started with the baby steps!
So... what are you challenging yourself on? What are your strategies for increasing differentiation?
Oh man...where do I start? The goal of this week is to stop "feeling" responsible for my Ws mood. Next is to pay attention to "why" I want a hug or reach out for affection. I'm trying to pay close attention to my behaviors to make sure my underlying intentions isn't to illicit a response. I'm not sure if this qualifies as anything but I said a really funny joke to W and instead of "basking" in her laughter, I did a "hit and run" and left the room while she was laughing as if I didn't need her response.
It's a very tricky process and will take some discipline. An example of a huge mistake I made today was that I rubbed my Ws thigh and she backed away. I immediately knew it was because she felt sweaty from working in the yard. I made the mistake of asking her if "it was because she was sweaty" about an hour later while she was talking about how nasty she felt. Bad Bad Bad. This indicated that I'm "remembering" her behaviors and "questioning" her motives. It should have not even registered.
I asked my C the same thing. She's going to coach us with this stuff thankfully. BTW. She was explaining how good PM is to my W and quoted the "cellulite" quote which must have appeared in some of his other work. She's pretty damn smart and DOES get Schnarch from what I've seen. She just doesn't have experience of navigating us through his method. It will be up to us to come to our own realizations, validate them with her, and then get coaching. I'll share her assignments with you. The feeling responsible one was the Cs idea.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I'm not sure if this qualifies as anything but I said a really funny joke to W and instead of "basking" in her laughter, I did a "hit and run" and left the room while she was laughing as if I didn't need her response.
I think it would count for more if it was something emotionally thorny, like a high-value self-disclosure, and you GOT a negative reaction, and were still able to hold onto yourself while maintaining close proximity. However, I'll give you points for practice. Not that "points" from me (or my opinion) matter at all. Sounds like you are on a good track, and I envy you your C. I'm going to be going it alone, at least at first, so I will highly value anything you can tell me about your C sessions and the coaching.
BTW, have you read Chapter 13 yet? Which couple do you think you are? I think me and W are Joe and Faye...
BTW, have you read Chapter 13 yet? Which couple do you think you are? I think me and W are Joe and Faye...
No where close....I'm just at 165.
Anyway, trying to analyze the dynamics of ours and other's situations and events is good practice for understanding this. This is how I learned object-oriented design with a coworker. We completely immersed ourselves into looking at the world and it's contents in a formal object-model.
Also, if it looks like we are infringing on Michelle's turf with this discussion, then we can move over to another newsgroup I set up on one of my servers.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Somehow I have a feeling that marriage, even as a system, wouldn't yield well to object-model analysis... too many variables.
I'm hoping if Michele is aware of this discussion, she'd support it on the basis that first of all, it is VERY MUCH on-topic, and secondly, if it can help people like us, then it's a good thing, right? I'd be VERY interested in hearing what she would have to say about this book...
Quote: When someone attempts to be more of a self in a relationship system, the absolutely predictable response from important others is, "You are wrong; change back; if you don't, these are the consequences!" In fact, if such responses do not occur, one's efforts to define more of a self are probably inconsequential (emphasis mine) - Murray Bowen, as quoted by Schnarch
