Separation imminent....

[Hermes]

2 facts:

1. Your M is over.
2. See fact No. 1.

Will you ever be reunited with your W in a romantic relationship? Frankly the odds are against it. By a lot. That is the truth you might not want to hear. The main success of DBing is not restoring your marriage. The main success is restoring you and your sanity. Can you really not see that you changing your ways all of a sudden can seem like such an act to your W?

And another 2x4. You really can't put all the fault of the divorce on her. You really were a problem before she pulled the trigger.

Why do you have to agree to a divorce? I am not sure what state you live in but some states have it so that both parties have to agree to a divorce for it to go through or wait for a certain period and then file for a onesided divorce. That's what I wold do. I'd say, I do not want a divorce, but if you want one it is your divorce, I will not stand in your way, but agree to it I will not.

With regards to the parents and THE TALK with them, under do duress would I state that the divorce was a mutual thing. You spilling the beans on the affair will not help one bit and besides that, the truth will come out sooner or later anyhow. And even if the parents knew of the affair, would it make a difference? Nope.

Again. SHE IS GONE. No amount of begging, pleading and asking will change that. It will just make you look like a pathetic little worm. Even if she has any feelings left for you, they are buried under many many layers of other stuff. You aren't even a blimp on her radar.

Do get a lawyer's advice. Do not let her railroad you. She will try guilt tripping you.

Do not text her any more, except important stuff (kids, home burning,...). Do not call her, except important stuff. Do not try to catch up on 15 years of neglected housewives, neglected chores, neglected relationship. You are still trying to find that illusive silver bullet. There is no silver bullet.

I didn't say to act like a male pendulum, but you need to be a man. Given the timeline I am sad to say that the next couple of months will be the worst for you (yes, much worse than you are feeling now), but after that it does slowly get better.

You will make mistakes. No biggie, you will have to learn to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go forward.

You have been given the gift of time. What gift you ask? The gift of improving yourself to become the best you you can be. Personally if someone offered to restore my marriage and I would have to forget my changes and improvements, I would flatly refuse without even a second thought.

You might find my writings harsh, I am not apologizing. I am giving you facts and not sugarcoating anything. You will realize at one point that you need a kick in the pants every now and then.

Stay strong Mercury, your children need an awesome dad.

[Hermes]

More Nuggets:

You've got to walk a fine line here, you want to give your W time and space but at the same time you don't want to seem cold, indifferent or unloving. The key is to LOVINGLY detach.

you have responses to this on your last thread. I am going to give you a blueprint in how to lovingly detach. Please read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not all about physically pulling away, as it is more about your attitude and the way you think and make decisions.

*****************************************************

Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

I'm glad you didnt take the bait and play the game your W is playing. Don't turn your kids against their mom. All you have to do is be honest with your kids with what your are doing. Take them with you sometimes. Make some of your GAL about them too. Its a good time to grow your bond stronger with your kids.

You W is starting to see you pull away. She is only going to get madder and more manipulative. She is going to try and use every trick in the book and when she see you are not reacting to her tricks she will play the victim card not only to you, but also to friends and family. Be prepared.

She will not be herself. I would go on that [GAL]. She is getting curious. Keep it going. Dont let up. Next shes going to say something like, "it seems to me you dont want to be married no more". She will reference divorce to see if it scares you back under her spell. Dont fall for it. You tell her, "you are for the Marriage and now your are starting to enjoy your life again. It has been an amazing few days." Then walk off. Don't let her trap you in a drawn out conversation.

You are ok. We have all been where you are except Sandi. She was WW before, so her advice is directly from the perspective of a WW.

We have all been hit upside the head with 2x4 by Sandi.

Learn as you go. You are going to make mistakes. You are going to question some of the advice, then you will question yourself. Most of us have made the exact same mistakes as you. We are giving you advice, so you don't do what we did wrong.

I was running around like a chicken when I got hit with BD. I was looking for that magic answer as well. There is none. There is only time, patience, and Hard work.

You wont be able to talk, write an email, text message or buy hundreds of presents to get out of this mess.

Gaining respect for yourself is a end goal. Making yourself better by identifying, self reflecting and then fixing those areas that destroyed your marriage is a goal. Making yourself a person only a fool would leave is a goal. Becoming independent of your W is a goal.

Those are 4 goals that will make your healthier and stronger. Realize I never mentioned getting your W back. She has to want to come back on her own. But, not until you have reached all those goals, will she want to come back, not until you have reached all those goals, you Will be in a place to except her back. Realized, I said you EXCEPT her back.

Those 4 goals are you worrying about you and no one else. Let go of any expectations you are holding for your M and your W.

[doodler]

Hermes, dude, you should've consulted me before choosing a name. Hermes sounds like a really bad disease. As in, "I've got a bad case of incurable hermes so the doctor prescribed thorazine and damnitall."

[Hermes]

Marriage Breakthrough Video Seminar
vs
Keeping Love Alive
MBVS seems hard to find and not avail on DB site

KLA looks good...
I already have Last Resort Technique videos (90 mins) and have found some good things there in addition to DR/DB books...

Thoughts on whether KLA is worth the extra $$?

[Hermes]

Pretty much all of us did all the wrong things before finding DB. You are not a failure at all, we all stumble around until we find our footing, that's a normal part of the process!

I've been DB'ing for over 5 years, it's a continuous learning process that everyone should embrace and continue even if their M ends (as mine did). It's a journey rather than a destination

S can be a good thing for DB'ing. Often the WAS feels the pressure lifted once S happens. Another thing that happens is the time and space sometimes helps the WAS realize the LBS is not the source of all their problems like they've been thinking. That can lead to soul-searching and growth on their part. It doesn't happen right away, but over time it can radically change the WAS's perspective.

The problem with DB is that there are stages and believe me, if you think its hard now , truth is you are still falling. Even if she leaves the OM and comes back to you and you do take her in which I think you will without a fight, you have a long way to go before getting to the stage called piecing which is hell. And in piecing you can still blow it plus the pressure is now back on you.

Right now the pressure is on the OM to not mess it up. If I were you I would take this time to work on myself.

Something else to consider, if you do finally work on yourself and be the 2.0 you may come across an unexpected surprise. You may find that the person you would die for now no longer makes you tingle in the fizzy bits. You may find that you attract a different kind of woman and are attracted to a different kind of woman. You may find that the new woman offers you much more than your EXW did.

Lives are affected when a family is torn apart. Your children's lives will be affected, and they deserve to know the truth. Don't play along with your WW and lie to the kids about it being a mutual decision. They deserve to know that daddy did not want to break up the family.

There was a DB member here awhile back that gave his personal experience of how he had always blamed his father for divorcing his mother. It was during the time he was posting on the board about his own M problems, that his father finally told him the truth about his mother's infidelity. All those years he had refused to have a R with his father, b/c he had not been told what really happened......and was left to believe whatever his mother told him. With his father choosing not to expose the truth, he lost the relationship with his young son. That story was an eye opener for me.

You and your W should face the kids together to give them the news, or she will not be honest with them. I am not in favor of lying to kids. At the same time, I don't suggest dishing out the dirty details. Age appropriate must be considered when revealing the news to D.

I would not say, "Your mother and I have decided"........ as if you are taking equal responsibility for the decision to divorce instead of her doing the right thing and end her affair. Some older teenage kids may be old enough to be told that their mother has met someone else and she wants out of the M. Each LBS has to use wisdom about how to approach this subject. Some kids are not old enough to hear that about their mother, especially when having "the D talk". All talks must be age appropriate information. Hearing the news to D, is devasting enough for them. Futher information about the reason to D, may need to be in increments, especially for young children. The only thing you've really agreed upon was to grant her a divorce. However, don't be surprised when your W resists telling them the truth, b/c most WW's want to be seen as "justified" to their children and everyone else.

It's not your job to destroy, or save, the relationship between your kids and their mother. It is your job to be honest with them. You are not trying to get them to take sides. Older teenagers will not appreciate being told some generic explanation for why their parents are splitting up the family. I feel some things between a man and his W should remain private. However, when it comes to why they got a divorce, older kids deserve to know the truth behind the D (at least, the basics). A lot of people grow up without knowing the true reason behind their parents divorce.

The parents deserve to know the truth behind the D. It's not your job to convince her parents, but if the D goes through......you could inform them. Your WW is going to give her own version anyway, so it really does not serve you well......other than knowing they were given the truth. Again, no dirty details, just keep it short and basic. It's up to them to deal with the relationship with their daughter.

I decided one day I was going to bring nothing but positivity in my home. I didn't care what her mood was, I wasn't going to let her mood affect minds.(this was hard as hell, and still is). I continued to stay positive, I smiled and laugh and only fed the good wolf. I also gave her space and GALed. But every time I was around her, I never let her see me in a down mood. I worked hard to not react to any of her snippy remarks and stayed above the petty arguments.

(This is for you) Sandi, is great at explaining this, you will never get your W back unless she respects you. My wife have told me multiple times now, she loss all respect for me. And would of never allowed herself to be with OM if she had respect for me. She also informed me that the only way she start to think about working on the M was because she saw me respecting her and she now wants(wants to respect me). (Respect is more important than love. Without respect, love cannot flourish) (I learned to respect myself and take pride in myself). I also, didnt ever bring up OM, I didn't give him, space or power in my head or home. I only focused on me. I also didn't tolerate her talking to him in our home. I made myself the only option to her for me, in my home. If she wanted to be with him she had to leave, (she didnt have to legally, but I made it known, I wanted her gone).

I also made D and option. I ran every scenario in my head. I was scared to follow through on getting a D, but I knew if it had to be done, then so be it. I would muster up the strength and take action. I decided I want let no one disrespect me. (This is a hard decision as well). But once I got this place, I felt more confident and I EVer better. This is my experience.

[joejoe1]

Is keeping Love Alive by Liam. If it is, he has some good advice. But I had a bad experience with his phone session. He told me to D my W and move on. Hope that helps. I'm glad I didn't listen to him.

[Hermes]

Know I've talked about this b4 and thank you for all the advice... this is still evolving.
Note: previous advice ranged the gamut between tell P @ A.. tell older kids like S16 @mom leaving me for someone else (no other details though about specifics).
to telling P about it... saying more generic, Because of things that have happened on both our sides, this is something she wants and I do not, but it takes two for marriage to work, so we are getting a divorce.

Know that there's only a TINY change of R at any point in future... and if/when we get there I'll likely be in such a different place that A) she won't tell me even if she wants it and B) Even if she wants us to consider, I may well have moved on to a place where I don't want any more pain from prior relationship in my life ever again. (I know we have problems and that We have a lot of conflict... willing to work through it now... not so sure 6 months 1 year 2 years down the road). But for now I'm concerned with not destroying road back to me irreparably...

Recap: WW wants vanilla statements like:
we are getting divorced.
We are private people... and as such this is a private matter. Please respect our privacy

for both Family and kids.

She has good points: We've not asked for approval in past, shared difficult details with them, etc., this would burden them and what good would telling them do?

My Side: I'm ok with letting my P know all of my sins and part in this, as well as her role in this (and I promise to be balanced and fair...

She is deathly afraid that A will get out... I was saying we can tell your P whatever you want. I won't lie, so if they ask about Infidelity or what caused this at best I'd remain silent... she admitted she would lie to them about A as this would hurt them and it's not the reason she's leaving. She's admitted she's strong enough and prepared to do this even though she knows the damage it will cause whether or not the A is there. She also recently admitted that she knows exactly what A could cost her and all the "sin" etc. and says she's sorry that it hurts me and asked for me to someday forgive... (which seems unbelievable to me right now [forgiving her] as A is not going anywhere and she's not sorry she did it). She also admits that she did this in the wrong order (A then D)... and wishes it hadn't happened that way.

Know I could probably use this in some way... but also know that this is A) wrong B) would be something I regretted forever C) ultimately not get her back and would make things worse btw us.

with my P: asked to go tell them alone and told her I planned to give them a fair accurate accounting and not throw her under the bus... she asked about A... I said yes that's part of it... She accused me of blackmail etc. as my Mother isn't particularly adept at keeping secrets (I had thought that through and planned to let her know that If she told others about it... It would irreparably harm my and her grandchildren's relationship with her)... W says that she would tell everyone and she'd be ruined just as if I did it to her... then went on to say she knew I was lying when I told her several months back that I had no intention of telling the world @ it. and how no one would care about any of the things I did to her when they found out @ affair... because that is the most "important" thing in most people's eyes...

I thought it through and said she may have some merit in her thoughts around what we tell my P and how that could be punative, and that I'm still thinking about it... (Still not going with her whitewashed V. of reality...)

Was at: we've had a lot of problems for some time. Because of those problems W has decided to leave. Which she says makes her out to be the bad guy. with kids and family and invites questions that we'd need to "discuss in advance how to answer"

Latest Evolution in my thinking:

Watched MWD video on what to tell the kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ImZwhQKVzo
very interesting take if you haven't watched it yet.

Essentially she says in addition to what normal advice is for kids... it's important not to lie to them about "united front" in divorce if this Isn't the case.

Instead say something like:
Your mom and I have been fighting a lot, we've been disagreeing on many, many, different things including what should happen to the future of our marriage. This is no different, we really do disagree about this, but since it takes 2 people to work at a marriage and to make it work, we are going to separate/Divorce.

AND HERE FILL IN CONVENTIONAL Advice
Love you not your fault… Let them know what will/will not change.

MWD acknowledges that this is tricky because you need to not start blame/counter blame explanations.

MWD also says that this is important b/c we've always preached about perseverance and working through difficult things in life (hard work/dedication) and now lying to them that marriage is too tough so we're both throwing in towel (which just saying we're getting Divorced is IMHO a version of) WILL cause problems down the road with kids
If they don't already sense difference in how we feel about D... they will in time... and then know that we lied...feel misguided and betrayed... and this is a REALLY bad example to set for the Children...

But not sure how to then avoid who did what to whom in front of kids... as they will want to know which one of us wanted in and which wanted out... I'm ok Mom's the one that had decided to move out. (But with the understanding UP FRONT that NEITHER of us throws the other one Under the bus with kids now or in future... (know this leaves A off the table as well).

With P. still working through this one...
still thinking about more balanced... Because of things that have happened on both our sides, this is something she wants and I do not, but it takes two for marriage to work, so we are getting a divorce.

(Note: she's also now mad that I now say that I'm not "solely" responsible for breakdown of M (i.e. prior to A)... I still believe I have a larger share in this as she did try going down cheeseless tunnels for many years as M slid further and further until Depression set in and it got ALOT worse leading up to A and then BD (A started well b4 BD but I didn't find out until several months post BD). She takes this as more of the same behavior from past (where I externalized blame for things).

Thoughts b4 sharing with WW? (I know I will still get blowback and at some point I'm sticking with a certain version of reality regardless...

P.S. I do know I can always go back and say things later (post D)... But if I do, I feel like I need to be fair/balanced... Not just she left for another man... but also my contribution towards Marital breakdown at a really high level. If/When this happens... mentioning OM name at that time OK? or crossing a line?

[Hermes]

Any advice on this one:

Know I have to work on Balance... and am re reading MWD books and listening to LRT Video at least 1x/week now to re-inforce what I need to do and how to do it in a kind/loving way that takes pressure off...

My issue is how to deal with the feelings that I have...
Intense Loss, Regret, Loneliness, Emotional Pain, etc. that each step we take closer to actual D brings...
these come in waves... most recently when she sent the Script she wants to use to tell family/kids... (this led to severe loss of ground through A and M talk... but did finally fill in some of the gaps as we've NEVER discussed the anger she has about things, nor how she feels about leaving/D... though the damage done by this pushed her to sleep in spare BR... from which she hasn't returned (which isn't a bad thing as I don't miss her as much when I don't have her in front of me in a look but don't touch capacity at bedtime and I've gotten several solid nights of sleep vs. waking up at 4 or 5 in morning and not being able to sleep anymore)... so I'm considering asking her to stay down there permanently (Note: she still comes upstairs to get ready/clothes).

I am resolute in remaining faithful (as regardless of her lack of morals/care for wedding vows) I believe in my heart it would be wrong for me to do the same until at least after D...

But it's getting harder each day/week as (among other things) my Primary Love Language is Physical Touch and I have 0 of that coming from her... and there is no one else... I know how to "take care of myself" physically... but that leaves a complete hole emotionally that grows by the day.
GAL helps with that... but when I GAL so hard that I don't think of it.. I end up staying away almost 24x7 on the weekends which isn't healthy... Even when going out with friends... I look around and see couples EVERYWHERE... and that just makes the hurt worse...

I know after D I also likely won't be in a good place to start a new Relationship... but am worried by then I'll be ready to jump at the first Female that shows interest in me as the Emotional hole will be so deep and wide by that point that anything will feel good...

[Hermes]

Another thing I struggle with...

I've gotten some really great advice from sandi2 about how becoming a "Super Husband" won't work with WW.
and know Beta Male behavior is trying to cuddle with her, saying I'm sorry for saying things like "our marriage/vows obviously mean nothing to you" when I have nothing to be sorry about... this is basically a true statement given A.

I am working on improvements for me regardless so don't care that WW is suspicious or disregarding, we're telling family/kids just after holidays and she's leaving come Feb.

I need some more help with this as I've messed up things like Loving Detachment in past (SOB detachment vs. loving detachment; was too cold at first while detaching.. getting much better though).

How to be an Alpha Male without being a j@rk or A$$...

Know from things I've read an Alpha would have kicked her out of BR and told her to go sleep elsewhere...
(She's now sleeping downstairs as a result of more R/A talks that I stupidly initiated last weekend... and am redoubling efforts to not do again... (long story short.. she presented her vision of story we're going to tell parents/kids... needless to say I didn't agree and she went ballistic this is discussed in other threads. as a result of this I backslid and had one more round of R/A talk with her (as we'd never really talked about affair... she all but refused, and R talk... I got a lot of "closure" on the exact things she's still not forgiven me for... and how she'd leave EVEN IF there was no Affair... see other threads).

Can someone help me understand exactly how this works?

I know I have to respect myself... set boundaries for Myself, be balanced, lovingly detach etc...
and I know that GALing and doing my own thing play into this... (I feel much better when I do GAL multiple times/week.)
Also know to avoid Beta behavior (following her around, asking how she is, waiting on her hand and foot... but that it is OK to among other things, offer to make the same thing for her to eat if I'm doing it for myself.

I also know that this isn't about a "magic bullet" that suddenly she'll think, wow he deserves respect... I need to get me some of that (dumping OM).
I get that she's gone and I'm working hard to make this my new cemented reality.

I still need to figure this out for myself so that IF/WHEN I ever get into another relationship... the minute I discover A/I I never tolerate this again, not for a second (no idea if things would have gone differently if, when I discovered A this Summer, I just told her to leave and I didn't want to see her again unless the A stopped and then it might be a possibility. (but no way to go back in time... if I could I'd go even further back to kick my younger self's a$$ for being such an A$$). BUT I think I might have moved ahead much faster and in more productive ways if I hadn't been so beaten down (depression, etc.) leading into the BD.

Help/Thoughts/Advice?

[Hermes]

Hermes, dude, you should've consulted me before choosing a name. Hermes sounds like a really bad disease. As in, "I've got a bad case of incurable hermes so the doctor prescribed thorazine and damnitall."

LOL I know.. It's just one that I knew STBX would never associate with me and seemed fitting in the Greek Pantheon of Gods to my sitch... (I'm weird that way.. I like Stop correcting "symmetry")