Quote: Expecting trust, validation, and shared reality only encourages fights about "what really happened". If you and your partner are constantly fighting about "reality", you're probably dependent on other-validated intimacy and you are really arguing about whose reality will become the dominant reality and whose anxieties will previal.
This is a VERY important point. When you argue with your spouse there is a struggle over who's reality is going to win out. The longer you let things linger or bury them the more fuzzy that reality becomes.
This is a lesson that took me almost 9 years to figure out. If you are going to disagree about something or your want to discuss something that's bothering you...then you MUST do it right then and there. Get it out...and get it over with. Otherwise...each person has time to let reality get so fuzzy that you'll never resolve the issue without someone giving up their version of things.
Again...it wasn't until this past weekend that I actually learned this little lesson.
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step." – Lao Tzu
Quote: you are really arguing about whose reality will become the dominant reality and whose anxieties will previal.
The real point here is that in this particular case, both partners are in emotional gridlock, and neither one will be able to see the other's POV. This happens because each needs the other to validate their own POV, but neither can do this for the other. That is why self-validation is so important... standing on your own emotional legs. It requires a kind of growth that doesn't happen by chance, and is NOT comfortable, but necessary.
I have to tell you that, when I read PM last year, I couldn't wait to use that line on my W: "I am tired of being pathetically grateful." In my case, I told her that I was tired of being pathetically grateful for her agreeing to have sex with me. I told her I was done with her controlling my sex life. What did I expect? Not the reaction I got, which was smiling and nodding, and kind of an "all right!" reaction. Taken aback, I asked her if she expected me to go to prostitutes...I told her no, that I was not looking for sex without love. She got mad then, when I suggested that it was more likely I'd have an affair with deep emotional attachment. That was something she would not abide by.
So why was her initial reaction happiness? Almost like she was proud of me? I don't know. Was she thinking that I was going to stop letting her control my sex life by not approaching her for sex, and just masturbating? (I'd basically been doing that for awhile.). I have no idea, but the moment is long gone now, and I don't know what her answer would be now if I asked her.
I guess I'll try to re-read PM and see if I "get it" this time. I'm a pretty smart guy. I'll probably figure it out.
Quote: ...the reaction I got, which was smiling and nodding, and kind of an "all right!" reaction. Taken aback, I asked her if she expected me to go to prostitutes...
Maybe her reaction was more like she was wanting you to choose her, which you then backed away from almost immediately. Sounds like your basic assumption was that you couldn't have her, but it also sounds like you were afraid to examine this too closely. A greater moment of intimacy might have been possible if you had really opened yourself up at that point, and let her know that it was her you want - which would have been to risk rejection. Sounds like maybe you anticipated her rejection instead of going with what her actual reaction seemed to be. Has she read PM? She's no dummy either... I bet she'd have NO trouble grasping the concepts...
I have read parts of that book, and I just have the feeling that it only works when the LD spouse is committed to finding a solution. It just seems to me that if you change the way you address the problems, but she does nothing, then what, DIVORCE? It's all about making choices, but You can not make choices for the other. SO lets say you choose to be great lovers, and the wife does not, then what? Divorce? For some of us, Divorce is the nuclear option, everyone loses, particularly the innocent kids.
Certainly divorce is one possible outcome, and that's a HUGE fear you will have to face up to, one way or another. That fear can also severely limit your ability to stand up for yourself, so it's something you will have to face sooner rather than later. You have to challenge yourself, to see if this issue is really that important to you. However, Divorce is NOT the only option, which is something that becomes clearer as you get into these concepts. Changing yourself has immediate and fundamental effects on your M, and also on your W. She now has to figure out how she is going to react to this "new you". You will no longer be reacting in the same ways to her. If you used to rant and rave before, in reaction to her POV, you will now find it within you to quiet yourself, let your POV be known, and wait to see how she reacts. That is hard, and I can say that even though I have not really tried it yet. That will be HARD, and SCARY. But it has to be done.
It's NOT about ultimatums. It's not easy to describe - you have to read the WHOLE book, not just parts of it. Start with the Introduction, and read EACH chapter in its turn. Read it as slowly as you need to. See if it resonates with you. It did with me. Yes, it is not necessary for your SO to buy into it for this to have profound changes in your R. The changes in HER will be almost automatic, because the equilibrium will be upset, the old things will no longer give her the validation she's seeking, and she'll have to face her own fears.
The HOPE side of this equation should be especially interesting to you, CeMar. You keep asking if an LD can ever become able to desire you. Having read this book, I can say that without a doubt, it IS possible. Not only that, but following the concepts in this book can have both of you exploring your sexual potential in ways you can't even DREAM of now.
However, rest assured that when YOU begin to change, SHE will be very uncomfortable. You can expect her to ESCALATE whatever behaviors she is trying to get you to "see reason". You have to be willing to stay the course, and continue to hold onto yourself, while maintaining closeness with her. That is the HARDEST thing - true intimacy. Here's a question: Would YOU be able to let HER see BEHIND YOUR EYEBALLS right now... right INSIDE you? How comfortable would you be if she could see your very SOUL? What fears does that prospect raise in YOU right now? Those are some of the things you will BOTH have to face in order to move forward.
The following is just another example from PM. It's in a section dealing with "other-validated intimacy"...ie. When you look to others to be validated. It's talking about how some Cs tell patients to simply "just do it" but that it will lead to more problems. As I'm reading this, I'm thinking about how often we try to "improve ourselves" when in reality, we are just trying to create a new "appearence" that elicits validation from our spouse.
Quote:
Self-presentation is is one way we adapt to our partner's differences in order to reduce our anxiety. Unfortunately it never provides the security and acceptance we crave, because we know our partner never really knows us. Attempts to Cajole someone into making us feel secure only make us insecure, the same way trying to protect ourselves through other-validated intimacy offers no real protection at all....
Self-presentation creates a paradox that sets the typical marital squirrel cage spinning...brings us one step closer to emotional gridlock.
True intimacy will come when we "self-disclose" not "self-present".
Yey!!! Our C session is in 30 minutes. Bye folks.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
This kind of sounds like an attack on "acting as if," which Michele supports. So, what are we supposed to do?
I vote for continuing to try to be a confident guy, even if you don't actually feel confident...even if you think your LD spouse has tried their best to rob you of your confidence (and you, through self-defeating, people-pleasing, non-confrontational behavior, have helped them).
Hairdog - squeeze tube from bottom and flatten as you go up.
Another really interesting topic (or set of topics) from the book is about communication and something called the quantum model of sexual response. On the topic of Communication, the question is posed, how can you spot a married couple in a restaurant? The answer is that they are not talking! Why? Because they communicate all too well. Each knows in advance exactly what the other will say on a given topic, and they don't want to hear it. Again, why? Because it will make them focus on some unpleasant truths about themselves, or it will force them to disclose deep secrets about themselves that they think might cause the other to stop loving them. Again, a fear of true intimacy. This, of course, causes them to "run out of things to talk about".
A new couple talks incessantly, not because they have lots to share with each other, but because each is seeking common ground with the other, and also each is seeking validation and a reflection of themselves from the other. That is a natural process, and leads naturally in the direction of fusion. Then, as the relationship progresses, and the fusion solidifies, another thing happens - they become more important to each other. As your partner's importance to you increases beyond your level of differentiation, this emotional gridlock thing happens. THAT's why married couples "run out of things to say".
On the topic of the Quantum Model of Sexual response, the idea is that sexual response has a LOT to do with not only physical sensation, but also emotions, feelings and meaning. The meaning behind a particular sexual encounter becomes much more important than technique. Sensations, emotions, feelings and meanings make up the total level of stimulation. In order for arousal to occur, the total level of stimulation needs to be above the arousal threshold. This threshold will change, though, depending on the particular meanings attached to a sexual encounter (not the intent). So it's all MUCH more complex than Masters and Johnson would have us believe. That's why things can get "off track", if we aren't dealing with the meanings of things, but only technique. It's why "sensate focus" activities can't work in the long run, because they are the antithesis of intimacy - they encourage us to detach from our partner and focus on sensations.
Another idea - foreplay is a period of negotiation, to see how much intimacy is going to be tolerated in a particular encounter. The interesting question here is how do you know when it's time to leave foreplay and move on to the "main event"? I can't really expand on this point at the moment... my reservoir of understanding has run out. Just some highlights...
This is a simple premise of cause and effect: for every action there is a reaction. If you want to change the reaction, you must first change the action.
And if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. It comes down to this -- if you become the independent self-confident man that you want to be, you no longer rely on her for your sense of self-value in your relationship, and you state your needs in an honest fashion, your W will either change or leave you -- neither reaction being one which you can control.
Tell her what you want from the M. You will no longer nag or criticize her, but that every action she takes from this point forward will be an inidication to you about how serious she is in contributing to the healthy development of the relationship. There is no need to argue. She will want to, she'll try to hook you into all your old behaviors, because that is they guy she knows how to work with, but once she sees you are serious, she will either confront herself or leave.
Yes, this is the boundaries thing I've always spoken of. But you cannot set a boundary until you believe in yourself.
