Ok Folks, I hope Michelle doesn't think of Schnarch as a competitor and drop this thread, but enough of us are studying Passionate Marriage now that I thought a new thread would be good. It is such a "tricky" read that maybe we can help one another clarify parts of it. We can also post how we can see it applied to us.
This first major concept that Schnarch has based his entire methodology around it "Differentiation". Here's an excerpt from an interview with the author David Schnarch on what "Differentiation" really means....
Quote:
Differentiation is about holding onto yourself enough that you can begin to recognize the impact you're having on other people. It's not me-ism. But you've got to hold onto yourself to be able to do that. Weak people can't do that--the people who are dependent on each other's validation for their acceptance or anxiety regulation. Everybody is afraid of something. Everybody is afraid to stand up. Everybody is afraid to be found lacking. Everybody is afraid that, if you really know them you won't love them. But you have to look and speak beyond that, where the question is no longer 'are you afraid?" It's a given that you are afraid. Now the question is, 'What will you do?" -David Schnarch, interviewed by WAMFT staff prior to a March 13 Conference
This idea is "driven" into your head repeatedly along with all the various nuances in the first 100 or so pages of the book.
I'm seeing a big focus on "give love language" = "get nookie" or "relationship bad" = "must need nookie". This book completely address the subtle complexities in our relationship and individual behaviors. I'm sorry it's so complex though but I'm not surprised either.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I've read about half of Passionate Marriage. I think the point about Differentiation is a VERY good one...but it flies in the face of cultural/media notions of romantic love.
Differentiation says basically this....you were an individual with individual wants/desires/needs before you got married...and that DOES NOT change once you get married. Sex is not JUST how YOU see it. Sex is also how your H/W sees it. If you want to have a Passionate Marriage you need to learn how to be that individual and that partner at the same time.
The point Schnarch is making is this: People are afraid to say what they want as individuals...so they don't do it...and then they don't get it...and then they are misserable. Fear controls them and fear ends the passion in their marriage.
The opening of the book talks about a couple that both enjoyed sex...but enjoyed it in different ways. Until they learned that sex is not always an apples to apples thing...it's not just insert tab a into slot b...that they had a passionate marriage. They knew they had to give to get...and they had to give up the fear and say what they wanted...
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step." – Lao Tzu
I will be ordering a copy of that book. I tried looking for it in the bookstore last week, and was told that only one store in the area had it, and they had only one copy. So it's off to Amazon for me...
From the littl eI have read of the book, and what has been said her, it sounds like his strategies require the full participation of both spouses, and full commitment by both spouses before anything will get accomplished. Great, is I could only get the wife to buy into the need for change.
That's true. I've only read parts of the book because it does require two to tango. But I got the feeling that once you got your spouse to buy into differentiation...then you could really get some sparks to fly.
One criticism of the book is that it's rather clinical and cerebral at first. I think Michelle is a MUCH better writer in terms of conveying her ideas. But this guy did a lot of research...so consider the source...
IMHO...PM would be the book you go to after SSM...and after you get your spouce to buy into SSM. Just my $.02.
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step." – Lao Tzu
Actually Cemar, it is very explicit in that it doesn't require both spouses. It has a similar message to Michele's book in that one spouse can effect change on the entire marriage. It gives a detailed account of the process of change and what "stage" you might be in in your marriage. A very good read, so don't count it out yet! It also has lots of tips on how to ask for change and stick with that request in the face of opposition from your spouse--something that you, personally, might be able to benefit from. Cause I see you asking your wife for a better marriage but not detailing specifically what that entails for you. Yes yes, I know that she KNOWS what you want, but knowing and hearing it are two different things. And hearing it stated in a way that is firm and clear on what the consequences are of ignoring the message, might be the wake up call that she needs.
I'm really wanting to convert some of this stuff into "action" but I think I need to discuss with C first because it seems tricky. I best finish the book too.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I'm really wanting to convert some of this stuff into "action" ... it seems tricky. I best finish the book too.
Exactly, Dave. Reading this stuff makes me want to be there. If only it were that easy...
The thing I love best about it is its message of hope. That profoundly meaningful sex is a product of years of maturity, experience and connection with an emotionally committed partner. It can't be achieved by youngsters - they're not developmentally ready. I love when he says:
Quote: Most people never reach their sexual prime, and those who do, don't reach it until their forties, fifties and sixties. Profoundly meaningful sex is determined more by personal maturation than physiological reflex. Cellulite and sexual potential are highly correlated. (italics his)
And he shows his sense of humor (not to mention his brutal honesty) when he says:
Quote: I've treated lots of women and men who reach orgasm at only moderate levels of physical arousal, desire, and meaningfulness. They have a characteristic in common: they're married.
As you point out, though, the tricky part is how to get started! I'm with you... I want to finish this book!
Sooo....does this mean my H and I can't have meaningful sex just because we're young?
Quote: Most people never reach their sexual prime, and those who do, don't reach it until their forties, fifties and sixties. Profoundly meaningful sex is determined more by personal maturation than physiological reflex.
I know I'm young and haven't have the experiences most of you have had, but I really don't think being in your sexual prime means you're going to have meaningful sex. While I agree with both sentences, I don't see where the two correlate. I would hate to think that just because I don't have cellulite that my H and I aren't going to have meaningful sex. And if I have to have cellulite for us to have meaningful sex, should I be reading any of this stuff now? Shouldn't I wait til I have cellulite, cause we can't have meaningful sex now anyway?
Don't take any of this the wrong way...I haven't read any of the book and am just reacting to what was posted here. It just doesn't seem right that some guy I don't even know can tell me we're not having 'meaningful sex'. Just because we're young.
I'm not sure what you meant by "youngsters", so this wasn't aimed at you. I just think it would be wrong to say that we won't experience 'meaningful sex' til we're in our "forties, fifties [or] sixties". And that goes for anybody.
I'm definitely interested in everyone's feedback.
><> Young and certainly not having 'meaningless' sex!
Fuzzy, I certainly didn't intend to insult anyone younger than me... I was just expressing delight that I haven't yet "missed it all". The book makes the distinction between "Genital Prime" and "Sexual Prime". Genital Prime is what people generally refer to and understand as Sexual Prime, and it is expressed by the commonly-held notion that the sexual peak for men is before age 20, and for women it is in late 20's or early 30's. That is true in terms of genital peak, meaning peak physical functioning (as dicated by physical condition and hormone levels), but definitely NOT true about a person's ability to achieve a deep, meaningful and intimate connection with a long-term partner. That is not to say that young people can't or don't have meaningful sex, but it does imply that things get better as you get older (or at least they can). The book also states that nobody enters marriage "being ready for it" - marriage makes you ready for marriage. Marriage itself is a person-growing process, and the very act of remaining married for several decades creates a process whereby the two partners can (I repeat can) grow personally and achieve a deeper and more intimate level of contact as time goes by. Notice that because this is a process of growth, it is NOT something that can be short-circuited. That's what makes it useless to mourn "wasted years" when you could have "fixed the problem" and been "enjoying each other" - you can't short-circuit the process, so you can't move forward until you're ready for it. Not only that, but each person has to make the choice for themselves. If both people make the choice to stay together and grow together, THAT is when the best sexual years of all are possible.
One of the most surprising things the book says (but so true if you think about it) is that most of us can't handle real intimacy with our spouse, because that intimacy would force us to confront things about ourselves that we aren't ready to confront, so we develop elaborate defence mechanisms designed to allow us to get just close enough to get the level of intimacy we can handle, without allowing enough intimacy to make things really interesting. I.e. we ML in the dark, with our eyes closed, to avoid letting our partner "really see" us - that would be too scary. The focus of this book is how to move beyond that to create true intimacy, which requires "growing up" enough to be able to handle it. NOT the kind of stuff for teenagers, but then they wouldn't be developmentally able to process this stuff anyway... (again, not a slur, just a fact).
