Wow M so she comes out of hybernation. Do you think this could be a major temp check to see where you stand? It kinda sounds like it to me. I also don't think she is sure what she wants and I am not sure she done with the MR yet either.
If she initiates the conversation whats wrong with engaging in the R talks? What is wrong with telling her how you feel? I am not talking about all the lovey dovey stuff and I want you back, I love you, etc. Just a matter of fact conversation about how you honestly feel, what would need to change, etc? You still have no proof of OM correct?
Not saying this is correct but something to think about.
I don't think it's a temp check. It didn't sound like it. She said she isn't in a place where she can see being part of saving the marriage, and that she doesn't want to go to MC and drag it out because she doesn't have that commitment right now. I told her I can respect her decision and where she's coming from. But, she's got a lot of anger that she's not getting any help for.
I feel like this conversation is going to be her unloading on me and arguing with me.
I agree with you on talking about how I feel and what would need to change. I have taken accountability for my actions and I can do that again. Part of me still fears seeing all that anger from her, which in a weird way makes me angry because I am not all to blame.
But, I want to work on being not angry and just cool calm collected and straight to the point.
No proof of OM, but I will be bringing that up in terms of what I believe was an EA, which I believe did contribute greatly to the BD. I don't think she sees it as an EA.
But, what I know is going to happen is that we're going to sit down and she's going to ask me "what do you want to talk about"... and this is where I am tripping right now. I'd rather have her bring up whatever she wants to start with and then take it from there. But, if I have to start, then I need to think about where to start.
I know that this is going to be a minefield and that I could potentially really damage any chances I might have for a recon. At the same time, if I don't do it, W will see it as the same old me that doesn't share with her and avoids conflict.
I don't see what I have to lose right now. I was thinking about pitching whether we go to a MC who can help us navigate these conversations, but I don't have the money to drop right now for professional divorce management, which is what this would be. So, my best option is to have this conversation and keep DB in mind and do the best I can under the situation.
Careful. Just slow down. Slow everything down. Seriously.
I don't think this is the time to "give it to her straight".
Being a doormat is one thing. Validating with a strong, calm and confident tone is another thing.
You really can't work yourself up like this. You have to remain calm in your approach.
Think about everything you are about to say. Before you say it.
Speak in a calm and confident voice. Do not speak fast or ramble sentences together, just to "get it out".
This might be the start of many talks, so you DO NOT need to get it all out in this one conversation.
You need to enter this conversation like YOU left HER and she might be trying to get YOU back. You are strong, calm, confident and stable.
This might be a first step. Don't f-ck it up by accusing, blaming and finger-pointing.
The squirrel might be peeking her head out of her hole. Do you think it would be best to wave your hands and make a bunch of noise? What do you think that squirrel would do if you did that?
You got this. Forget trying to rehearse a speech. Just remain all of the following, no matter what she says or how heated she gets. Let her be the crazy loose cannon. Because you will be the stable rock.
Thanks Matrix for bringing me back to the ground after me whirling around close to the sun.
Oddly, I feel really calm and okay about it today. I just thought of my goals and what I am doing and it gave me a great boost. Also, I bumped Rage Against The Machine really loud while driving to work, so that helped lol.
I get your point about not giving to her straight. I just need to think about what I could bring up to talk about if she asks me 'what do you want to talk about'. She's always done that since BD and I am sensing it is because she's also afraid of bringing things up.
There's tons of stuff that I can bring up:
- Bad communication - Poor sex life - Her possible EA - Avoiding conflict - My depression and how it affected things - Me being NGS and not wanting to rock the boat
I know she will rage at me a bit no matter what we talk about and I am okay with that. In the past I would just want it to all go away and end the conflict, but I feel like I am in a place where I can be strong and confident and let her unload without going nuts on her.
I will re-read the validation cheat sheet and really prepare myself for that and make it natural as possible.
I don't want to throw truth bombs at her, but she wants to see some real vulnerability from me. I can give her that and tell her how I have felt about certain things without saying 'you did this'.
I am not trying to rehearse, but I want to have a loose game plan so that I don't veer off course and I have some things that I can say.
So Matrix, I can do it no doubt. I am glad I bought myself a few days so that I could prepare myself mentally and emotionally.
Main thing you mentioned that is important for me is to slow it down and not ramble. I have the tendency to ramble at times and I definitely don't want to do that.
The thing is, I have owned up to my failures, but maybe not in a very detailed way. She hasn't expressed any apologies for anything she's done. Only said she knows that it wasn't all me. I would need her to own up to her $hit, but it doesn't have to be this talk.
I guess my main goal is to show her that I can provide a safe space for her to say whatever she wants to say and remain strong, calm, confident, and not be a doormat. I am not going to keep apologizing over and over again.
So, any tips on what to say to start a conversation would be appreciated. I can joke around and talk about small stuff in the beginning no problem.
Thanks folks. It looks like I am getting to the worst part of the process before it can get any better.
M...you got this. Calm, cool, collected, very matter of fact. You didn't do all of this work for the past 6 months or so for nothing
Who was the one that requested the meeting? Did she ask you to come over and then you suggested a sit down? What gave her the idea you wanted to talk about anything? Or is it in context with you never telling her how you feel about the situation?
Obviously your not 100 sure where she is going to go with it but do you know what you want? What if through the course of the conversation you find out about OM? Is that a deal breaker? You have said before she would need to change before you took her back. What would that look like?
When I think about my W approaching me about our R I picture myself listening, validating and letting her know I need some time to process. If she asked me what my feelings where I would tell her I was initially shocked, hurt and angry. However once I was able to step away and look at things clearly I realized that I wasn't happy either. The anger turned to sadness, the hurt went away and I became more accepting of how you felt. Then I started looking at myself objectively and put all of my focus into my own happiness, my own self-confidence and then I realized that I am going to be happy with any outcome because I found myself. The time, the space, the distance allowed me to find myself and that is all that I will really ever need. Maybe not these specific words but something that let's her know your good, your not sitting their graveling, pining away that your a man of value and that you don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Your not just sitting around.
If she asked me what would need to change in our R I would let her know that we need to work on our communication (I could give specific examples if needed), we need to spend more quality time together and put our MR first before ourselves and the kids, do more things together as a family and spend more time connecting individually. I would also say sex life as well but I think that is a product of intimacy and connecting so sex would probably increase as a result of being closer. So I am not sure I personally would bring up sex but I would need to think on it.
I also think your W needs to know your a different person as well. What if she asks you what have you been doing with your time? You could play it coy or you could just let her know. Maybe not in this meeting but as you go through the process. You enjoy rock climbing, your new home gym. some of the artistic things you have re-discovered and those GAL activities will be in your life moving forward. How have your expectations changed of her? What would you want her to do differently, your non-negotiables?
Again all of this may not come out in 1 conversation but just stuff to think about. I think this is also about your confidence level and do you feel as though your in a position to communicate your wants/needs/desires and do so with the understanding that she may not be able to deliver and if she doesn't you either accept her or you move on.
When I think about having this conversation with my W it makes it easier when I tell myself we are already D'd. We are separated, finances and time with the kids split what do I have to lose? Hell, I have already lost it.
Thank you so much for sharing what you would say in this situation and it gives me a great foundation to talk to her. I think that I will start out with telling her how I felt during BD and a bit afterwards. And then see where it goes from there.
If she asks me how we can improve our relationship, I will let her know that currently as it stands, our R is just centered around the kids and I am a 100% co-parent with her and will be proactive in our communications and plans about that.
She has said she doesn't want to save the MR, so I won't share what I think I would want for that unless she explicitly wants to talk about that.
With my GAL stuff, I can be pretty upfront about it. She already knows that I go climbing.
This is all good stuff. I will think it over and make a bit of a game plan.
The funny thing is that she says she doesn't want to save the MR but yet she wants to have this deep discussion with you. Not sure I would believe everything she says
Yeah, that's what I don't get. Why have these types of conversations if you're done and have said that you're out the door and never turning back.
I definitely don't believe in everything she says and with her revisionist history of the MR, I know that it's all skewed and she's cherry picking stuff.
I am not going to mind read, but my sense is that this is her move for seeing if I can be a safe person for her to share and vice versa. In some ways it is bananas because I have zero trust and by creating a separation like this, she has created an environment that makes me have no interest in being vulnerable. When I told her I wanted to work on the MR and all of that, she turned it down flat. I was willing at that time to be vulnerable and do the hard work and she wasn't. Maybe she is now, but she doesn't really know exactly what that will look like and wants to feel it out.
So, I can give her some honesty and vulnerability, as I have no expectations that this will lead to her changing her mind or anything else.
I don't know what triggered this for her.
She didn't request the meeting but she kept asking me 'is there anything you want to talk about'. she said it over and over again. If I had said 'no' at that point, it would be blatantly dishonest. So, I said of course there are things that I would like to talk about. And then she asked me when. I told her I can talk any time and put the question back to her. She said any time as well. She wanted to do it yesterday evening after the phone call, but I couldn't because I was in the middle of something, but also because I needed to take a step back and think about this conversation - which was a good decision. So, we agreed on this weekend and she's coming over to my place.
I don't know if I believe her stance on not wanting to work on the MR, but I am going to take that comment on face value and not try to speculate or read more into it. It's going to be one conversation at a time.
You could have taken this approach or just told her there was nothing to discuss unless you want to work on the MR. Just show her a strong, confident, calm and cool M that doesn't get emotional, who is secure with himself, who is not needy and see where the conversation goes. Have no expectations and just be honest. Maybe she needs some closure or maybe she needs to know you still love her. If it starts to head down that path, make her wonder, make her chase you, be the prize.
You're right about the two approaches. Maybe she needs closure. Maybe she just needs to unload. I just remembered an interesting exchange on the phone.
After the 'do you want talk about something' and her pushing me on it and me saying that there are things I would want to talk about, I asked her why does she want to talk about 'us'. She said because it's important for you. So, I said, is it important for you? She said, it is important for her because it was important for me. So, I left it at that.
Yes, I will be cool calm and collected. I think I am going to talk about my feelings during BD and some of the stuff afterwards. And then I am going to leave it open to see what she wants to say and talk about.
I am definitely not going to give her the impression that I want to chase her or I will take her back as is. She wants the MR, then she'll have to put the work in. And I will tell her what that is if she asks. I am not going to volunteer information and just ramble. This has to be controlled and calm.
I think that I got this and I have some time to just emotionally and mentally prep for it.
