WW in EA, NC w/OM(?), W's BFF interfering, part 7

[sandi2]

Every woman is a little different, of course, but I can give you my opinion. I've noticed you have been bringing up the subject of reaching the point where the two of you will be intimate again. I seriously believe that is normal for two reasons. 1) B/c you were the LBS, and 2) b/c most men seem to see having sex as "sealing the deal" (so to speak).

Will she initiate? A lot will probably depend upon her libido. When I started taking hormone replacement therapy, I couldn't believe the difference it made for me. The second consideration is looking at the sexual history. If she felt comfortable about initiating sex, then that's a plus. Previously, she didn't like to initiate, and perhaps you waited for her........and then you end up waiting on each other. That's what leads to SSM, in my opinion.

Men seem to be very sensitive about being rejected (women do too), and they start this mind thing, "I will never initiate sex again...... and if we have it, she'll have to be the one to start it". I understand why a H would get to that point. It hurts to be rejected. Women can reject the act of sex for many reasons......without rejecting their H, but I don't know that men see it that way. Several men on the board have said they saw waiting for her to initiate, was being kind & considerate to the feelings of their W. That's fine, except if she's the type who strongly believes the man should pursue.......then they have a problem. So.......you both will have to overcome those old ways of how you view it. I would encourage you both to speak individually to the MC, and read books about the opposite gender and how they think, what they want, and how they are geared, etc.

I can tell you a couple of things that could pass through her mind. If you don't initiate, she may wonder if it's b/c you can't put the affair behind you. She's having body image issues, so naturally, she'll wonder how much that plays a part. I know, it may not matter to you.......but if it makes her feel poorly about herself, then it affects her self esteem and that will effect how sexy she sees herself. When a W sees herself as sexy, then she will feel like acting sexy with her H. She may also fear your rejection, IDK. If there were an issue of ED, then she might blame herself.

I have often said about some some H's, that when he tries to make love.......he starts at the wrong end. Unless your W has a high sex drive, you will need to prepare her for the physical sex act by, first, making love to her mind. You said you had been flirting with her. That is great! Having fun together, laughter, and flirting is wonderful. One little trick that worked with me, was H and I talking about when we were dating. He would talk about how I looked, what he was thinking, how he felt when such & such happened (no bad stuff, just funny, sweet, or romantic). If you know her love language, make sure you use it.

From what I hear, some men have trouble showing physical affection.......without thinking it's going to lead to sex. And some can get a little ticked b/c they think she was leading him on, or don't see why she couldn't just carry it out to the end. Now, I don't have a man's brain, so keep it mind. I've heard women say that they won't show any affection b/c it always leads to the H pushing to have sex. If the W didn't want sex and just wanted a little affection......then she has to decide, "Do I tell him and then put up with his pouting and cold back for the rest of the night, or do I have sex even though I really don't want to"? Usually, the W has a reason......like being tired, stressed, or a number of issues on her mind. My H once said everything had to be perfect before I wanted to engage. If you call being worried that your kids can hear from the next room......then, I guess he was right. Women are a very complexed gender, and it doesn't stop with sex. Whereas, men seem able to tune out everything else, and have it anytime......plus, it's their answer for everything in the MR. .

Anyway, let me get back to what I started out to say. I suspect your W will have to really get OM out of her head more than she has so far, before her mind & body is ready to take the plunge. However, as I said previously, I don't know her sex drive. As for seeing crystal clear cues from her.......ummm....not likely, at least for a while. B/c sex was an issue before the OM was in the picture, I don't think it will be that easy, but that's just my opinion. I suggest that you ease into a conversation about it, or else talk to the MC, privately, and see if it would be better to approach the subject in a session.

I have to ask you, are you thinking of initiating sex before she leaves for her overnight this weekend? I kind of think the thought is hanging around in your head.

This weekend may be a milestone in her progress. As for what to say to her about it, I encourage you again to not "remind her" of all the things you want to say.. This will be a big test for you, Jim. If she should ask about how you feel or if you can trust her, just say something like, "I am so proud of how hard you've worked, and I want you to have a good time". If she pushes about the trust issue, you can say something like, "This may prove to be a test for both us, and if so, then let's hope we both pass with flying colors". (IDK, I'm not very good at wording things just right). If she asks what you mean, just shake your head and don't get pulled into a R talk before she leaves. And let me quickly add another thought about this. If she knows BFF is going to arrange for OM to be involved somehow, then her guilt of that knowledge could cause her to appear as if she's trying to pull you into a fight with her. If she just kept on quizzing you about it, then I would be suspicious. Otherwise, it sounds as if she just wants to check and see if you are okay with the trip.

When I was going through withdrawals, every night I would come to the board and read & post until I couldn't hold my eyes open. It would have been so easy to contact the OM on the computer I was reading & posting about DB. So, I am hoping that both of you will come through with flying colors.

I suggest that you make big plans for GAL this weekend. Don't wait until she leaves to start thinking about what you'll do. It would be good if she saw you getting excited about your own fun plans for this weekend. Can you get away and take a trip, too?

[hoosjim]

Will she initiate? A lot will probably depend upon her libido.

The answer to this, probably as far as anyone maybe even herself knows, is: "It's anybody's guess." Alot of moving parts to this one.

Apparently, and as I probably posted early on in my threads, my W's libido was significantly stronger than I ever knew, although there were clues I possibly should have picked up on. Either way, makes it all the more remarkable that she actually stuck around for as long as she did without venturing outside the marriage, AND that the A with OM never went fully physical, assuming it didn't... and I am about 95% certain it didn't. (Overheard a conversation fairly far along in the A where it was clear that they "had not" although they sure as heck were talking about it... suppose it could have happened sometime after but don't think they had any opportunity that i missed, and later conversations seemed to indicate still "no".)

Another factor, and also contributing to my belief that "they never did", is her catholic faith, to which she had been very devoted. OTOH, her rebellion into waywardness was also based on this, as she has extensively discussed with the counselor: "I feel like my whole life I have always done what I was 'supposed' to do... that everyone thought I was a certain way, this 'good girl' when actually there is a lot of the 'bad girl' inside of me wanting to come out..."

(Here's where all the male posters on the board can kick me when I'm down and make fun of me for neglecting my extremely attractive, 30-year-old-looking, apparently very horny 'bad girl' wife.)

Finally, another wildcard, she is now going through menopause... and may be fairly far along, at least to hear her tell it.

So, yeah. Who knows where she is libido-wise. And even if i had a clue right now, menopause might change the calculus wildly over a course of just a few months or even weeks....






And I gotta admit, here... alot of times I am at a bit of a loss in how to interact with this girl (my W). I can chat and flirt with her with little difficulty (something I was always fairly good/confident at) but as far as approaching her physically-- something I typically also had fairly good "radar" for knowing when the right time to move was-- I am at a loss with her. We're just in a really weird place in that regard. Definitely at a spot in the "new" relationship between us where I would normally be doing things like taking her hand, slipping my arm around her waist when walking or standing near each other, etc. etc., but... just not getting the "vibe" that that would be welcome right now, and certainly not that she is looking to be kissed. Then again, she has been okay with my putting my arm around her shoulders or on her chair back when we are sitting while out or at church or wherever. So maybe she is just waiting for me to make a strong move, like you said is possible but... maybe she is not, and I am certainly not getting any such vibe and, for the most part, she is not initiating any touch with me. It's just like... we're a little off kilter/normal. I told my counselor not too long ago that I almost feel like the "rules" with my W currently are pretty much completely different from what they would be with any other girl I were interested in.

Arrrrggh. Not used to being this flummoxed by a girl.

Well, except when the W and I first met and had our first go around. .. Where she pretty much flummoxed me that time, too. (We had a summer romance that lasted about 4 and a half months, then she got cold feet and broke it off... broke my heart. Then she "came back" to me about six months later... asked me to go Key West with her for a week, lol. The rest is history.)

[sandi2]

As I've said previously, you need to increase light, physical touches before trying to initiate a touch considered more intimate. Holding hands is a romantic gesture she may not welcome at the moment. However, she may tolerate you lightly touching her face or hair when you are talking. When you have your arm around her while sitting side by side, you could try moving your hand to the back of her neck.....or even just on her shoulder, and see if she tenses up. Don't do it during church, b/c that's taking advantage, IMHO. The point I want to make is that the non-sexual touches should continue, and slowly begin touches that are more personal. Like, putting your hand on the back of her neck is not sexual......but neither is it a touch you would give just any woman. If you can tell she isn't keen about any futher touching, then I suggest you put sex on the back burner.

Another factor, and also contributing to my belief that "they never did", is her catholic faith, to which she had been very devoted. OTOH, her rebellion into waywardness was also based on this, as she has extensively discussed with the counselor: "I feel like my whole life I have always done what I was 'supposed' to do... that everyone thought I was a certain way, this 'good girl' when actually there is a lot of the 'bad girl' inside of me wanting to come out..."

I said something similar to your W's statement. I was raised in a very conservative, religious family. I never got into trouble, never sowed wild oats, etc. I lived with my parents until I married. I was the "good girl" in every sense. After marriage, I was the "proper wife". I don't think I ever felt as if there was a bad girl in me that wanted to come out. However, I remember getting a little resentful that I was expected to set the example for others.

Did she come away from the session with her counselor feeling any differently about herself......or was she given any tools? Has she ever talked with a Priest about it?

Of course, she may be falling back on the "bad girl", as her explanation for the inappropriate behavior. She may think that she's obviously bad, to have acted this way.

I hope you are right about her faith preventing her from engaging in a PA.

I am anxious to hear how she acts when she comes back from her overnight trip.

[hoosjim]

Did she come away from the session with her counselor feeling any differently about herself......or was she given any tools? Has she ever talked with a Priest about it?

That's a tough nut to crack. Counselor got her to open up some in joint sessions, told my W that she (W) seems to be "putting a lot of pressure on herself" with that line of thinking, and that there are things that are "Bad" in and of themselves (like murder, rape, marital infidelity) and things that other people (like parents friends or loved ones) might not necessarily agree with or like, but which were not necessarily "bad" (one example counselor used her was that my wife sometimes likes to dress "sexy" (not necessarily trashy, but showing herself off) but that she often didn't because she felt parents wouldn't approve (yes, even after we were married) or that others might think less of her or judge her as not being that "nice proper girl" that everyone thought she was and should be. She also offered my wife availability as an IC any time she wanted, and W seemed very interested... but hasn't followed up (that was three weeks ago.) Several people, including me, have had similar conversations with W in past, but hasnt made much of a difference.

Ditto with the body image. Seems like only thing that will make her "happy' there is "losing 10-15 pounds", but she's a knockout as is.

I am anxious to hear how she acts when she comes back from her overnight trip.

Unless she has REALLY upped her cheating game (always a possibility as her bff is a frikking pro), she passed. Slight concern as the third wheel to her and bff was not my wife's other gf who is definitely more respectable than bff (though still single and divorced and somewhat jaded about men) and who is usually the third in the troika, but rather another friend of bff who is not really close with my W but who IS part of the circle that hangs out from time to time with OM. So quite probable that that topic (OM) came up. She texted me and both boys in a way she had done in the past when she was feeling guilty and about to or coming back from seeing OM but... she has also done that just when missing boys or when guilty about other things (which she could feel knowing how i feel about bff-- and fwiw i did not grouse, complain, or look angry when she left, just hugged her and said "have a good time, see you tomorrow, I'll be out with my buddies at _________ if you need to get ahold of me.") And I did throw up some tracking surveillance on her in addition to her phone tracking, because, well, this was always the dynamic that was the most likely to see some sort of slippage. To all appearances, she did what she said she was going to do-- had dinner with bff and then went back to bff's house. suppose she could have ditched phone and been picked up by OM for rendezvous but... 1) She is really worried about both boys right now, both of whom are dealing with some significant short term stuff with urgency potential, 2) bff's house is an hour and a half south of here and a bit out of way for OM and...

3) Holy S, they ran into bff's STBXH (my own best friend) and his current flame who just happens to be bff's AP's STBXW! (Follow all that? Incestuous, I know. At any rate, with my best bud in town (and it is a very small town) doubt W would have risked anything she could have been caught at. As an interesting sidebar, here, it is possible, just possible, that my friend might finally be seeing some results thanks to cutting the cord on his STBXW (my W's bff). My W's bff had originally planned to cook for the three or four of the girls, but changed plans at last second to make reservations at restaurant... where she knew my friend would be with his date. SHE's SHADOWING HIM, LOL! Treated him like absolute dirt... had an A with his then best-friend, cake eating like a champ, and he enabled and enabled and enabled and finally said "enough". As soon as he moved out, proceded with the divorce, and she stopped getting what she wanted, she threw a FIT. And continues to do so. At any rate, was a weird dynamic for my W, and she said so. She tried to say "hi" surreptitiously to him (I have told her in recent past how my friend stuck up for her and continued to consider her a "friend" when we were having our worst troubles) but couldn't manage to do so with bff there.

Her demeanor since returning has been generally a bit quiet and withdrawn... We talked alot at dinner after S17's soccer game today, but once home, she spent an hour on phone with her mom and then sat downstairs in comfy chair by herself on phone next to fire while i worked with S17 on college apps. She did come upstairs, though, to share some of the funny stuff she found on the phone, and we laughed and bantered and joked and even flirted a bit, and I had her laughing pretty good. (And blushing, but in a good way, i think).

She also said something interesting. When talking about my friend and her trying to get his attention and then the fact that he professed on the phone to me this morning not to have even seen her and bff when they were at restaurant, I told her that he was "not like me" and was not the most observant guy in the world. That I, for example, "saw the whole room and everyone in it" when I entered a room or establishment and noticed how they looked, what they were doing, etc. I have always been more observant than my friend, but the "new" me, one of my 180s, is to try to take a genuine interest in and notice of anyone and everyone near me instead of being so self absorbed. When I said the above, W said, but that's only you NOW, the old you, say, 10 years ago, wouldn't have entered a room like that". That's not exactly how she said it or words she used, but she said it in a way that indicated she was buying into the fact that I am a changed and different person now. Which is encouraging.








Given all that, do you think I should be trying to cajole or entice her back into counselling? Her take generally in the recent past has been "what do we need to talk about" or "everything seems to be okay", but then when we do eventually go in, which has uniformly been on my motion, we do end up talking and the sessions DO end up helping. Her best and warmest demeanor towards me has almost always been in the immediate wake of our appointments with MC... But, as I said, she is always reluctant to go in. This past time, MC gave us homework which W was very eager amd emergized to do at first, going out on her own to buy art/office supplies and then saying "lets sit down and do this". That initiative faded a bit over the subsequent three weeks, although the couple of times I have mentioned the homework she has said somethign like "I could use a copy of ________ book that she recommended" or the like.

I ask because it sounded like you thought i should back off on that a bit at one point...

[CW2017]

How uncanny. On the morning we were "discharged" from MC my W said to me "we don't need to go anymore, we're OK now aren't we?" "we just need to talk more" hmm.. It's almost like there's a scriptbook for this sort if W behaviour

[hoosjim]

Adding this note because it concerns W's willingness to work on the intimacy/physicality issue: Today after she came home from work, she went and got one of the resources MC recommended on intimacy-- I know because when I went up to bedroom a little bit ago she was reading it. Now, in the past, she would do things like this as sort of a "make up" when she had seen or been talking to OM... and there have been a couple of little things the last couple of days that have set my mind back to spinning again, like her getting home VERY late from work today (8 PM-- though she did call at 6:30 and again when she was leaving) but, like I said, if she is back up to no good, she is being VERY clever/discrete about it. She did not offer to discuss it with me or anything (which is what MC had suggested we do, so maybe she's waiting for ME to suggest doing so?)

Anyway, additional color for my above questions.

[doodler]

hoosjim,

When I reflect on my situation, it's clear to me that my wife (now XW) was striving to maintain the status quo. As long as I ignored the affair, things were calm. If I hinted that wasn't happy she was in contact with the OM, then there was h3ll to pay.

When we talked to the MC, the MC told my wife that "this could be fixed." My wife hated that. She was adamant that the marriage couldn't be fixed. I think (i.e. mind reading) that my wife understood that fixing things meant the OM would have to go away. There was no way she was going to allow that to happen, even at the expense of her family.

I don't think your wife has grown apart from her relationship with the OM; she's just learning how to balance the two relationships (you and the OM) in such away that she can have both (eating cake and having it too). She's improved her game. The fact that the MC discharged the two you suggests to me that you need a better MC.

[Tread]

I agree with Doodler. Before putting W out, she would be calm carrying on appearances. But as soon as I brought up her communicating with OM. W would get nasty. I got fed up when W got physically violent towards me over a man who wasn't doing a thing for her. These WW lose their damn mimds.

[hoosjim]

Doodler, thanks. My apologies if I gave the impression that we had been discharged by MC-- we have not. In fact, as I think i mentioned above, she has indicated we still have a lot of work to do and we have specific homework assignments outstanding with her right now, which W sometimes shows strong interest in completing, and at other times lets languish. Right now she's somewhere in middle WRT those... showing interest but not being very committed/determined about it (though work and our kids' struggles are playing a significant time-demand role, there). More recently with MC, she has also been receptive to MC's message that "things can be fixed", but of course is not certain how that will happen with us... but she seems willing to try (she was the one who initiated work on the latest homework a couple of weeks back, and she also requested i obtain an extra copy of a particular book for her so she could highlight what she thought was important in it and we could compare notes). However, our "work" of late (3 weeks since last MC session) has kind of tapered off, and that is why I was asking Sandi how much, if at all, she thought I should nudge my wife in that direction.

Also, as I posted, while I get little twinges of doubt here and there, if she IS still contacting OM, it is so far underground that I don't know how I would actually find out about it. I have no concrete reasons to think she is back cheating.

[doodler]

hoosjim,

Oh well, I should read all of your posts before being an armchair counselor. If anyone asks, it's all Sandi's fault.