WW in EA, NC w/OM(?), W's BFF interfering, part 7

[hoosjim]

25yrsMLC, thanks for the very detailed and thoughtful (and thought provoking) comments...

When you put "quotations" around your words, are you intentionally undermining the real intent or being sarcastic?

Two things I use a bit too often are parentheticals and quotes. Parentheticals because I have a perceptive mind that makes connections rapidly and the parentheticals allow me to puke that additional tangent out there without losing my primary train of thought. It's a blessing/gift in my profession, but can be a burden in everyday life where focus on the main issue is required or, say, when it would be better if your mind didn't "spin scenarios." Which brings me to quotations: I actually don't intend either of the dynamics about which you ask (undermining real intent or sarcasm). (See, I did it again.) (And there again, drat! ) My usage of quotations is another byproduct of my legal training. By and large, when I use them, I am attributing that word or turn of phrase to someone else-- sometimes because I am writing something in terms that I, perhaps, would not myself write it but at any rate which is the common parlance for that particular sitch. An example would be "completely over the OM". Other times it's just the use of a word that seems slightly off dictionary definition or slang-ish so I will use quotes, like my use of "dips" in the post above. Other times it just seems like the right place to put quotes, but... I do have to admit that I probably do it quite a bit more than is necessary or even desirable, and I can see, reading back over my posts, how it could come across as snarky or sarcastic, which is definitely not my intention.

exposing the affair to 3rd parties (not talking about confronting your own spouse)

is not in alignment with MWD's approach. You can disagree of course, but it's not a DB policy.

I am not in favor of outing (really wanted to use quotes there :)) one's wayward spouse to family, friends, others (and if I didn't make that clear, I apologize), or of otherwise shaming them (though I do think they ultimately need to feel such shame). I fully understand the defensiveness and rebellion dynamic, there, as well as the concept of "keeping the road home paved smooth."

My point here in responding to CW was more along the lines of I generally think it would be appropriate to see that the spouse of the AP found out about the relationship. Wouldn't even have to be openly... an anonymous letter or the like. Putting aside the fact that that other spouse has a right to know what's going on, it can certainly take the bloom off the rose of the A for the AP by bringing the A itself out into the open and removing some of the excitement/danger/mystery from it. I went through and reread the sections on affairs in DR and HFI and, while I found plenty on not confronting your spouse, laying down angry ultimatums, or outing them to friends and family, I didn't find anything counseling against outing the AP to their spouse. I suppose if you did it openly and overtly it could go against those tenets, but... it doesn't necessarily have to be open and overt.

And point well taken on examining your goals and motivations. All I can tell you is that the person I am now (not at the moment of DB, but right now) could not bring himself to continue to live with a spouse who was carrying on an affair. It's just too painful and hurtful... and not that's not a place I want to be living in. Too much good to life to continue wallowing in that.

if H had found out I was tempted and seeking IC to resolve this on my own... and exposed me to anyone, I'd have deeply resented the he11 out of him.

And I would have felt cornered, as if he was punishing ME for reacting to the solitude of our marital bed, caused by HIS career choice. I was lonely for a reason. And it was HIS behavior creating that. My loneliness was a direct result of his choices.

And I absolutely get and understand all of that. It is one of the weird paradoxes in my current thinking that I fully understand (and thank God constantly) that he has brought me down the path he did because I am reasonably certain it might be the only path that could have brought us to a place where reconciliation is a possibility. Like I said, W and were not even really what you would call friends. Roommates, at best, and ones that were fairly tense and testy and uncomfortable with each other at times. Back in January, at time of BD, she had absolutely NO reason to want to stay with me and all the reason in the world to want to leave. The kids obviously are and were a big concern to her, and MAYBE that would have kept her around no matter what but... If I had dropped the hammer on her and the affair at that point, and drawn that boundary right off the and said "it's me or him", and then confronted OM at that time like I ultimately did much later? I'm pretty sure that that would've been it for us. She wouldn't have been around to see my changes, we wouldn't have spent the time together that we now have spent reconnecting and rebuilding what is definitely a fun, strong friendship and which, here and there, shows some little romantic sparks (but still VERY little.)

Jim, if your wife really does "get it" and if you really do get it as to how she felt before the A...
(b/c as you said, you two sort of took turns doing the rejecting)...that's a big fat step. But in my experience, remorse can only be felt a certain length of time before it feels oppressive or like shame.

Not defending that^^^, just noting it.

I think Each party has to believe at some point the past will remain in the past and the couple can go "from this day forward."

This is the tricky part for me and W right now. We are trying to work on it, but... the spectre of the A is still there, the pain, the suspicion that pops up when she is gone (though getting better), the unresolved issue of her friendship with bff. And it is still hard for her to talk about a lot of that, and hard for me to know when "enough is enough" and we need to move on to other things. I certainly feel, no, scratch that, I know that I can and do forgive her, but... there's still a lot of stuff we need to work out.

[doodler]

Two things I use a bit too often are parentheticals and quotes.

hoosjim,

I hope you use the word "copulation" in the vernacular rather than actually saying "copulation." Unless, of course, you're in the act of copulating; in that case, it's acceptable to say "copulation" or use that other dirty-filthy word, depending on the company you keep. (Parenthetically speaking.)

But, what the f*ck do I know?

[hoosjim]

I hope you use the word "copulation" in the vernacular rathe r than actually saying "copulation." Unless, of course, you're in the act of copulating; in that case, it's acceptable to say "copulation" or use that other dirty-filthy word, depending on the company you keep. (Parenthetically speaking.)

But, what the f*ck do I know?

Dude, you totally made my day, there...

Hopefully, I will one day soon have occasion to use that word in the context of my own sitch/thread...

[CW2017]

CW
does your wife SAY it's over and she's recommitted now? Sorry I don't recall your sitch off the top of my head.

I'm not sure if you guys are trying to reconcile or piecing, etc

Hi 25
you very kindly went into my sitch in a bit more depth on p.1 of my latest thread. At the time of my confrontation in the summer she assured me it was over. MC went well but as you will recall we were "discharged" as all seemed well but I was having some doubts in my gut (I confirmed that the A was still on -to what extent I don't know yet- a couple of weeks back through a "light touch" instant messaging phone check when she was inebriated). So things are going really well between us at the moment but there is still the elephant in the room which will have to thrashed out at some point in the near future.

[hoosjim]

So, here is the moment Sandi2 said would come:

W wants to go off to have "dinner and sleepover" with her wayward bff and another GF. This would be "at bff's house", which is about an hour south of our hometown. The trip necessarily takes her past OM's neck of the woods, and, if you are new to this sitch, trips to see bff, whether overnight or not, were routinely used as cover for W to see OM at various points. Everything from brief meetups for drinks with a large group to dinner and drinks to breakfast at a Denny's halfway between here and bff's town, to one night somehow ending up spending the night together in a hotel (where sex, believe it or not and I am confident of this based on my intel, somehow did not occur.)

The level of BFF's "active" involvement in all of this is open to debate, although she certainly: a) routinely contacted OM at the request of and on my wife's behalf; b) was present at most to nearly all of the social interactions between W and OM; c) actively lied to me (who she had previously considered a friend) to cover up my W's A; d) Allowed W to use her (bff's) address as a return address for packages and letters sent to OM; and e) most recently, about four weeks ago, called W from OM's favorite bar and tried to entice her to come out (W said "No.") W does not know that I know about the hotel room and about the call from bff from the bar, but knows I know the rest. Bff has tried to argue to W (overheard convo) that "Well, I wasn't actively setting up hook-ups between the two of you or anything" (though I would argue she actually kind of did, but, whatever) and W has told me that "I'm a big girl and I can take responsibility for all the times I saw OM... bff did not actively encourage me... she just wants me to be happy and if she thinks I can be happy in the MR then she will support that." Of course, I know quite well bff's stance currently on me and my MR to my W, which is that she is not in favor of either.

I quite simply cannot and do not consider bff a friend of my marriage. Further, WON she was an ACTIVE encourager of the A with the OM is somewhat irrelevant-- she is clearly not a friend of the MR and I am still not sure, even as trust in my W increases, that I can trust my W in that scenario. I pretty much have no way to monitor or check up on her and anything she could do (call, text, whatever) could easily be just window dressing if she decides to get together with OM.

Not sure where to go with this. She kind of sprung it on my this past Sunday, out of the blue, asking if "it was okay" if she did this. I was completely taken unawares and said: "Ummm, well... I guess it would." To which she said "Well what does that mean?" and then we were interrupted by a call from S18 (who recently got arrested down at school-- whole nuther story... " She mentioned it today on a brief call from work, but more in the context of "I am going to be away on Saturday, so..." I feel like I missed on opportunity to force some sort of discussion on bff, an issue which we have never fully resolved. She went to meet up with bff once several weeks ago and I reacted badly, and it sparked a very good and in depth conversation about a lot of things... but didn't ultimately resolve the issue of her relationship with bff. To hear her tell it, bff is "her only real female friend". Now, this is not strictly true... bff is her oldest and closest friend, but she has others... just not others she trusts/likes as much. Bff has a very strong and outgoing personality, and is VERY wayward in her own behavior (having, ICYMI, run around on my OWN bff with another one of our friends and pretty much running roughshod over my bff who wouldn't stand up for himself.)

My own personal take is that bff engaged/participated in an attack on my marriage. She is demonstrably, at this point, not my friend and, to most appearances, is not a friend of my MR, although she sent wife a handful of softer-sounding texts in recent weeks inviting W AND me down for a couple of festivals events in her town. I don't think W is any more comfortable with that idea than I am (and than bff probably is). I just don't know if I can trust bff and, honestly, if I can YET trust my W in that dynamic.

Our sitch still seems kind of delicate. Until just about 2-3 weeks ago, wife was still periodically driving by or nearly driving by OM's old haunts. We (W and I) had a very encourageing couple of weeks with a lot of fun and talk and her taking the initiative on some of the counseling homework but... We've kind of hit a rut, here. My son's arrest and my younger son's (the one with Tourett'es) college application process have impinged on our time, so we haven't been able to focus as much on us and the MR. No counseling sessions for either us IC or MC for going on three weeks, and been almost two weeks since we worked on the self-exploration exercises MC assigned. W has also seemed a bit more distant/withdrawn, didn't handle well seeing the "All-star" list for football which listed OM's son three nights back (she was quiet and mopey most of the rest of the night), though she did ask that I order an extra copy for her of one of the books recommended by MC, and she was open to the idea of me scheduling a MC session in the next week or two. She has NOT, as she indicated she was going to, scheduled any IC for herself.

In terms of intimacy, we are still... challenged. She has been more open to touch, but still sometimes pulls away. It is confusing and frustrating. She kept dropping hints a couple of nights ago about her aching feet and let me give her a foot massage, and sat leaning up against me later when watching TV, but then last night when I sat down next to her she quickly pulled away from me.

I am aware of the dynamic involved with getting over an A... and we are not even 3 months removed from what I think was the start of true "NC" with OM, but... man this is hard and confusing. And this thing with the bff is really driving me nuts. I don't feel like it would be unreasonable under the circumstances for me to have a boundary of "If we are working on our relationship I can't have you hanging out with people who are so obviously NOT friends of the MR"... but in some ways it seems like that genie is already out of the bottle.

Maybe this is the time I just need to see if I can trust her?

[sandi2]

The first 4-6 months after last contact is a very crucial time. I mean, she just saw the name of OM's son in print.....and it seemed to have had a pretty strong affect. So, she's still fragile. Too fragile to be going on an overnight trip with her wild BFF. However.......I don't believe you can do one thing to stop her. In fact, it's best that you don't open your mouth about any of it. Don't mention BFF, MC, IC, MC homework, withdrawals, OM........nothing! Don't ask questions before or after the trip.

Sure, it will probably be the toughest thing you've ever had to do.....but she has already made up her mind. If you say ANYTHING, it will lead to something else.....either then or later. Actually, I'm really surprised she has gone this long, but that's not to say I trust her. She simply doesn't have enough time under her belt to feel comfortable about her facing this little overnight trip.

Your temptation is to control her. You can't. Then, you'll want to say something to impact her decisions. Don't even try......b/c she'll know what you're doing and she will resent it enough that it could backfire. To her, she's been a good girl, and has earned the right to go out. The best thing you can do is let go of all the things you want to say to her. Her "asking" if it was alright, is just a way of notifying you that she's going.

Yes, it is a big test.......for both of you. If she does backslide, you'll know it.

[CW2017]

Jim
not at that stage yet personally but I think at some point (even if there is genuine suspicion) you just have to ride with it as art of your own personal recovery (I can now see my own personal improvement since, for example, I stopped looking at texts in June)

[hoosjim]

You can't. Then, you'll want to say something to impact her decisions. Don't even try....

And if SHE brings it up to ME, which she is almost certain to do since my "I guess" seemed kind of equivocal? How should I handle that? "Hope you have a good time." (?)

[hoosjim]

Also, Sandi, been reading some of your other posts-- When you have a ""recovering" WW, which is what I think I have in my sitch, how important is it to let her "make the first move" in, well, pretty much everything? My own W, at least for now, seems committed to, if not actively working on us on any given day, to, at least, avoiding any further EM entanglements. And, in fits and starts, she is even taking the initiative, as with a couple of the homework assignments our MC gave us, and, on other occasions, asking ME out socially. OTOH, she is still moody and sulky sometimes, and still somewhat affected by mention of OM and/or his family.

One of the dynamics that plagued our past marriage was that it WAS a SSM, and she has told me she needed to feel loved, and desired, and beautiful and, yes, pursued. But, while she is very, very gradually warming up to me, I still don't get that vibe or any cues that she is waiting for me to kiss her or "go for it" or whatever. Similarly, with the MC "work" and such, she seems to get interested in it in fits and starts, and on her own initiative not mine, but then will set it aside and not mention it for days or even a couple weeks.

I havent pushed things on either front. I do flirt with her, and have been working on being physically closer to her through light touches, etc., and, like I said, she seems to be warming up slowly, but... I still have it in my head what she has told me in the past about wanting a more active physical relationship and a mate who will pursue her for that. I just want to strike the right balance. It DOES seem like when I play it cooler or even pull back a bit myself, or go do something on my own, that her "interest" increases.

In sum, I guess, I feel like we are not QUITE "piecing" here, even though she has had, I believe, that bottoming out "dark night of the soul" and is more interested in working on us than in the alternative. But I just wonder how much I should be waiting for crystal clear cues from her, both in terms of physicality and in terms of MC work, before I become more active.

Personality wise, she is a generally a very affectionate and physically forward person, who typically will touch, hug, lean in to, etc. other folks she likes, so I would expect such cues from her if she were open to it, but... maybe that's another way she has changed. She also DOES for some reason now have this bad body-image issue where she thinks she is getting fat and says she doesn't really want anyone touching her. On the MC work front, she has shown a willingness, moreso recently, to undertake this work, even on her own initiative, so I know she has that in her, as well. So, I can see her giving me good cues there when she is more "ready."

Idunno, Ive rambled a while now and dont think I am really explaining this well. I am extremely confident in my interactions with her, and am comfortable flirting with her and conversing with her, but still just wondering how much I should be looking for clearer signs from her in these areas.

[AnotherStander]

how important is it to let her "make the first move" in, well, pretty much everything?

Hmmmm, well you're in a pickle, that's for sure. I would like to hear what Sandi has to say, but given that you don't even know if you're in piecing then I would say it's best to assume you're not. I mean based on this:

In sum, I guess, I feel like we are not QUITE "piecing" here, even though she has had, I believe, that bottoming out "dark night of the soul" and is more interested in working on us than in the alternative.

And this:

Personality wise, she is a generally a very affectionate and physically forward person, who typically will touch, hug, lean in to, etc. other folks she likes, so I would expect such cues from her if she were open to it, but... maybe that's another way she has changed.

I would say that you're not there. She's not showing any physical attraction towards you, and not really showing much of an inclination to work on things beyond saying maybe it's not as bad as splitting up. I don't know if this is going to be Sandi's take, but mine is you need to assume you are not piecing and stick to DB'ing. Continue to make yourself the spouse only a fool would leave and keep giving her time and space. Sandi often says that the WAS isn't on-board with coming back until they show a humble spirit and I don't think you're seeing that yet.

If and when she does express interest in reconciling, then I would by all means broach the subject of sex with her. Tell her that intimacy is important to you and that you need to know she's on board with working on it ASAP. Don't get stuck in a sexless piecing phase like so many others do.