still struggling

[Jim1234]

Stander, I really appreciate your time and comments. I've taken a long time to think about them before responding.

I did it in the most validating, non-threatening, calmest manner I could.

Validating is LISTENING first and then validating her feelings. I would like to hear you describe how you were validating in this conversation, because I suspect you don't understand what validation is. A lot of people here misunderstand validation. And validation is in my opinion one of your most important tools if not the most important one. So understanding what it is and how it works is critical.

I understand validation to be listening to her point of view, and acknowledging that her point of view is valid. The piece that I think I might have been missing is that my point of view doesn't matter at this point. Maybe when she is willing to work on our marriage, but not now. Until she is willing to work on the marriage, her point of view is all that matters. And 25 opened my eyes that I was only waiting for her to pause so I could tell her MY point of view. Hopefully I'll do better in the future.

It sounds like you've painted her into a corner. She can't make good on the agreement unless the D goes through which would give her the assets to fulfill the agreement, but you're trying to block the D from going through thus denying her the very assets she needs to fulfill the agreement. Basically you're putting her in a situation where she CAN'T fulfill the terms, then you're sending her harassing messages that if she doesn't then you'll be left with "no choice" but to rain hell on her. And then you keep saying it's "just business" and you have to "protect your interests". Do you think that makes her feel better?

I can see where she thinks this, and yes, she is in a corner, but I think this is revisionist thinking on her part. I didn't put her in this corner; she did. And that's kind of what is so hard for me to wrap my head around.

I feel I was incredibly supportive, kind, thoughtful, loving.... I mean, who else buys a house with their ex because they can't do it on their own? I am not blocking or obstructing her from this divorce in any way. All I'm doing is simply waiting for her to move the divorce along. She hasn't done [censored], but now I'm the bad guy because she hasn't refinanced.

And I know that none of the above matters if I want to save this marriage, but I am having a hard time with it. And I should have discussed the house thing differently

I am full of so many conflicting ideas that I don't really know which way is up. "Maybe I should let the deadline slide,
but maybe I should do a 180 by taking the house and selling it. Let's face it, following my instincts resulted in my wife leaving. Maybe I should do something different. If she asked for 80% of our marital assets in the divorce, I should stand up for myself and say hell no. If she expects me to continue to own half a house I don't want, I should stop protecting her from herself. Am I being mister nice guy buy letting the deadline slide or will being tougher bring better results." Ad nauseum.

Part of my issue is that I don't see how I look after my emotional and financial interests in a divorce, but still entice her to return.

But as you say at the end, I need to think, Is what I am about to say to W getting me closer to my goals, or pushing me farther away?

p.s. she would say part of the reason for the divorce was issuing ultimatums.

"Ultimatum- a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." ....
That's an ultimatum.

You're right. That's the epiphany that may save my marriage.

Jim, it's time for you to reevaluate. Take stock of your situation and decide where you want to go from here. Do you want to save your M? If so, then that should shape everything you say and do. Before saying ANYTHING to your wife, ask yourself this question:

Is what I am about to say to W getting me closer to my goals, or pushing me farther away?

Again, thank you for your time and insights.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim,

I know you are getting a lot of 2 x 4's, & IK appreciate your willingness to take it all in.

I feel as if you are processing the input, which is vital to you no matter what happens.

Just a few things I hope will help start an internal awareness or heightened awareness of what your wife is saying.

For a minute, let's put aside any hope of recon or plowing through to divorce.

Just look at something very clear, which your wife wrote out to you:

she sent me a text later that said, in part, "what you did today was present me with an unnecessary, shameful, threatening ultimatum. This behavior is why I left you in the end after years of hoping you would eventually understand the harm and hurt you were causing by giving me ultimatums and threats."

So I would like the community's input.... was it an ultimatum and threat?


Your reaction here was to ask us for definition. Better to ask how you can start communicating in a healthier kinder way.

FTR yeah your words sounded lousy to me. Sorry.

But even if they didn't it's how you sounded to your wife. There is a lot of it going on in your posts. Lots of put downs and contempt.

HOWEVER

she sounded really depressed for a long time. I'm sure that was frustrating for you.

I just don't know if it's the chicken or the egg (her depression and low self esteem from years of belittling control, versus your behavior worsening with hers)

and I'm not sure it matters NOW.

In our marriage vows we say the words "from this day forward." They're brilliant words, imo.

If you can take those words in, and go "from this day forward" with how you treat your wife,

maybe it'll help.

[25yearsmlc]

In law school we were trained to make our points AND to respond to what the other lawyers or witnesses said.

The ability to respond to what is actually said, requires listening in an active way.

In negotiations we had to find common ground and listen for what motivated each party. Finding common ground helps to narrow down what is in dispute, not hammer it to make sure we get every single item, - which is so unlikely, it prolongs most disputes. That's where fighting to win everything ends up costing most parties, more.

We cannot just wait to blurt out our next point, (though you might not know that from what we see on TV).

If you could force yourself to recap what she says to you, (& ponder it) you'll know you heard it correctly and she will know you cared enough to listen.

THEN TAKE IT In and see if there's common ground, rather than seeing her as someone to be convinced.

She's not the jury, and you're not just trying to "win", right?

make sense?

[Holding]

Part of my issue is that I don't see how I look after my emotional and financial interests in a divorce, but still entice her to return.

Jim, I don't have any great insights, but I struggle with this a lot as well. I don't know, maybe we just reach a point where the enticing no longer matters.

[25yearsmlc]

calmly protecting interests, doing nothing in a punitive manner,

is what you can do. It won't eliminate hard feelings but it will help reduce them.

Example: My h canceled the car insurance on my car, without notice. And canceled our d's coverage too. Given the disparity in income, I thought it was petty.
But I was more irritated that he gave me and our d's no warning. They called me. Cowardly.

I tried to defend him in my head, thinking "well, my car isn't even here yet, but..." It still struck me as cheap and selfish, with a side dish of wimpy for not telling me.

Then He canceled life insurance we had on him from when he deployed, which I was paying for, so it cost him nothing for me/the kids to have it.

For me, this^^ was such a vindictive, petty & cruel act, that there was no explanation other than something that reflected very poorly on him. His L said h believed he'd been paying but that's a lie I can prove (Insurance company took notes of the conversation and h was "informed wife was paying all premiums"). Who does that?



He could have changed the sole beneficiary to our kids (b/c God forbid I get something after 35 years of schlepping around the world for him). We are a continent apart so it's not as if he can pretend to be afraid of me??

Hey guys, I know It's not WWIII, but i probably won't ever see my h in the same way.

Does this help?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Jim,


If pressed, my guess is that h would say "25 should not benefit from all MY hard work"

"let 25 see how it is!" or something like that. Or he'd shrug and not care at all. I don't know him anymore. (Harder to get coverage on him now, too. Much more expensive).

But if he were self aware and kind, he'd be able to see that it was a "show 25" moment.

And it was an ugly one.

[Jim1234]

25, I needed the 2 X 4s. She's been telling me these things for years, but for some reason, I never understood. I think I do now, and appreciate and will try to incorporate your suggestions as far as listening, repeating, and then commenting.

Yes it has been going on for years, and I'm not sure where it started any more, but will try to do things differently going forward.

[AnotherStander]

I understand validation to be listening to her point of view, and acknowledging that her point of view is valid. The piece that I think I might have been missing is that my point of view doesn't matter at this point.

YES!!! Like it says in DR, it takes one to tango. As unfortunate as it is, YOU are the only one dancing, LOL! Later, if and when you get to piecing, communication becomes more of a two-way road. But at this stage it's all one way- her communicating to you and you validating back. Your point of view is not on her radar right now.

I can see where she thinks this, and yes, she is in a corner, but I think this is revisionist thinking on her part. I didn't put her in this corner; she did. And that's kind of what is so hard for me to wrap my head around.

I understand, and in looking back at what I posted to you I don't think I was clear on this but I was not so much accusing you of making all those mistakes, I was saying that that is her PERCEPTION of what you are doing. She's got goggles on that only let her see you in a bad light, whatever you do receives a negative interpretation.

Part of my issue is that I don't see how I look after my emotional and financial interests in a divorce, but still entice her to return.

Well you have to protect yourself, but both sides in a D want to be "made whole" and neither side ever is. So there's often anger and resentment over that. But plenty of couples have reconciled after D, so try not to worry too much about how it affects your chances. As Cadet is fond of saying, D is just a piece of paper, it doesn't really change your sitch. And in fact it's often the road to emotional recovery for the WAS because they start to realize their issues are internal and not completely caused by the LBS. I'm not saying to push D through, but if she does then roll with it as best you can.

Again, thank you for your time and insights.

You are quite welcome, and kudos to you for taking the 2x4's to heart!

[Jim1234]

Here it is, about a week after my second conversation with my W, where I apologized for issuing ultimatums. Before my apology, she was emailing back and forth with her lawyer, and sent me a draft settlement proposal. I contacted my mortgage company to refinance our marital home to get her name off the mortgage so she could refi her home.

At the time of my apology, I asked for her help by saying I was much more aware of what I was doing now, promising to make an effort not to do it in the future, and asking, if I did do it in the future, instead of going ballistic immediately, if she could first let me know she saw it as an ultimatum, at which time I would step back and seriously think about what I said, and how she saw it from her perspective. She was receptive to this.

Receptive enough that I asked if she would think again about reconciliation, and hold off having her lawyer send my lawyer the settlement agreement until she made a decision. She recognized there was no point in refinancing until she made a decision. So far, I haven't received anything from her through the lawyers, so I take this as a good sign.

I called the mortgage company and paused the refi for a bit, but they won't wait for forever. Some time next week, I intend to mention that, and ask for her thoughts. I'd prefer not to be the one to bring up the MR, but also need to get started on the refi if she decides not to reconcile.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks

[joejoe1]

Jim,

The only part I'm not in agreement with is you asking her to R. You are pursuing hard. She will let you know. Thats what you ultimately want, for hwr to want to come back to you.

IMO its almost sound like you gave her another ultimatum. You asked her to hold off until she made a decision. I think she would do that anyway. You have to give her space. Stop asking her to stay with you. Start giving her reasons to staying you by showing her she would be a fool to leave you.