WW in EA, NC w/OM(?), W's BFF interfering, part 7

[hoosjim]

Man, it is just never easy.

First, the bad, to get it out of the way because that's where i feel it needs to go and stay: out of the way. Ever want to just punch someone square in the throat? Like over and over and over?
Thursday/Friday were just really good days for me and the W. And for whole family in general. Then, today, talking to S17 I get hit with a load of bricks. S17, who is a natural athlete, just... he's good... used to be a football player but stopped playing because his Tourettes and related symptoms made it no longer enjoyable for him to play the game loved. So he joined yearbook and now is responsible for, amongst other things, sports photography for the football team. Yesterday was homecoming at his school, so he was there all afternoon and evening filming-- cookout/tailgate, pep rally, parade, game-- while W and I were out of town. Today, after having spent the night with friends, he comes home and is dressing for his soccer game and I ask him if he had fun at homecomings. "Oh sure, Dad, it was great. I got to take pictures of the parade, and I saw Mr. OM there, too! He was driving a truck in the parade and came up to me afterwards and asked me how I was doing and was telling me about the recruiters there to see his son for the game." [If you're new to this party, OM was not just my friend but he was friendly with both my sons, OM's son is one of the school's QBs, and he's probably good enough to play at the small college--D3-- level, and S18 played on the same teams with OMs son].

ARRRGGGHHHHH! Didn't I tell that [extremely scathing expletive deleted] to stay the [expletive deleted] away from my W AND away from my boys. And I was not at all equivocal about it. To top it off, W was sitting right there and she got this real funny look when S17 said it. (For additional color, S17 has no idea what transpired between OM, W, and me-- in case it's not clear enough form his comments. OTOH S18, who has asked a couple of times why i don't "hang out with OM anymore" does, I believe, strongly suspect based on some things he has said, though if he does he does not appear to have shared with his brother). I so, so, so want to pound that clown into the dirt right now. At least W came upstairs right after I went up and put her hand on my shoulder and asked me "Are you okay?" And I kind of played it off and didn't show any anger even though i was SEETHING.

Okay, so, enough of that. Now the good. W of course seemed to have had a bit of a "setback" in her A/OM recovery about two weeks back, had been somewhat sulky and kind of withdrawn at times... wanted me to give her "space", had been feeling "smothered", etc. I had taken the opportunity to give her that space, had gone out a couple of times with friends, which she didn't seem to mind, and had basically pulled back some. As of only about a week ago had seemed hesitant about the counselling MC and IC we had scheduled for Friday. Then Wednesday, I think, she asked me if we were still going, and I said "yes, unless there's some reason you can't for work"-- giving her an out. Which she didn't take. We drove down Thursday night. Nice drive, didn't leave til late because wanted to have dinner with S17, which was also nice. We made alot of fun, idle chit chat, played around with the radio, sang the songs we found and played a game we used to play where we'd try to stump each other about songs or artists or other trivia relating to the music (we're both big music lovers and big roadtrip lovers.)

Friday's counselling sessions ended up being all "joint" MC. W didn't bit on opportunity to talk to counselor individually on Friday even though counselor offered a couple times, although, by the end of the four hours of sessions, she had a couple of important "epiphanies" and said she thought she should probably try to talk to the MC alone, hopefully in another session next week. We got alot of stuff out. Made alot of progress, I think. She really enjoys our time together, says she feels can now "depend on me in a way she never could before" to be there for the kids, etc., feels like our relationship has grown from where we probably weren't even "friends" a few months ago. She really treasures the family times we have had together recently, and says she would never want to lose that, and has trouble envisioning a sitch where we are not together on holidays, etc. She even says she is sorry she told me once a while back that she "doubted she would even be that upset if something happened to me" and that she didn't really mean that. (SURELY, sex between us must be next, lol.) The anger she says she had at me for so many things is gone, she says. OTOH, she still doesn't have those romantic feelings for me (MC reminder her she is only a few weeks off of relationship with OM), and still feels a little weird/uncomfortable sometimes when we touch, though she says she is getting more comfortable with the latter. She does say she "knows we will have to work on that" and that she "Wants to" do so. She still does "think about OM sometimes" and says she is sorry that that hurts me but she "wants to be honest." Finally, that she wants to work on this but she is a little afraid, too.

For my part, I copped to still being hesitant to reach out to her sometimes because memories of her with the OM would crop up, and that it really bothered me that he was the last man to kiss her, my wife romantically. Also that I was a little afraid too, afraid to make myself vulnerable again and to take a chance on the relationship again. MC also piped in for me at one point when I was talking and when W looked confused and said "I think what hoosjim is trying to say is that he 'wants' you sexually but loves and respects you enough to step back and give you the space you need even though he wants to rip your clothes off and have his way with you" [Which is not exactly what I was saying but it seemed to go over really well with W so I let it ride.Our MC also doubles as a sex therapist, which is pretty cool, IMO] We had been talking about the tension between trying to be deliberate about touch and reaching out to each other and the times when she felt she needed "space" and how to reconcile the two. Finally, it came up in another context about her saying she wanted to go off for her 50th with BFF and other GFs for an island vacation, and she actually said she was sorry about saying that and thought so immediately after she hung up with me, and that she doesn't always think she wants to do things like that but her thinking changes day to day and it is confusing. She said if anything she would want to go off by herself, but she wasn't even sure about that, and that she was sorry because she knows some of the things she says and her changing moods hurt me sometimes.

We talked alot about our respective pasts, and our own past relationship, and MC came to the conclusion that she is taking alot of blame and hurt and responsibility for things on herself, including that she is putting all the pressure on herself for if we "try this" and it doesn't work out and then she'll be responsible for hurting everybody. Also has commitment issues (absolutely true on the latter... I could have told the MC that just from our own early experiences.)

There were quite a few tears from W, though not uncontrollable sobbing as there has been sometimes in past. They were really pretty good sessions and we talked a whole lot. MC gave us each some exploratory exercises to do individually... sort of a "who am I" kind of thing... in preparation for each of us doing some IC. W actually ended up being pretty eager about this, and wanted to talk about it in the car ride home (which was also very nice and "loose") and at dinner, later, and she even went out on her own initiative this morning and bought us posterboard and markers for the exercises.

Last night was also really, really good, in some ways, but also showed how far we have to go, still. She surfed around on ride home and found a new band we hadn't seen before that sounded interesting playing at an old, hole in the wall English style pub, and said, well lets go here when we get home. I suggested just going straight to dinner and then pub but she said "I'd like to go home and freshen up some." Which she did and... just... wow. I mean, like Va-Va-Voom. She put on some cut-out bare shoulder shirt that she had just bought and did her hair real quick and sprayed on some shimmer mist and I was like... Dang! She looked amazing and I told her so, and for once it didn't seem to annoy her and she smiled and said "thank you." We ended up just eating at pub, and it was great. Really full house crowd, the band was a lot of fun, so there was a lot of noise to cover any lulls in conversation (of which there weren't many.) We talked, and drank some, and joked and even exchanged some light sexual banter. Talked about alot of things that we'd never even really talked about with each other before (somewhat inspired by the "who am I" exercises.)

She also was telling me one of her big epiphanies was that she didn't think she'd ever had a fully committed relationship... not in the sense that she was not monogamous, and her EA/fling with OM was the first time she had been unfaithful to any significant other, but rather that she had never been "all in" and completely comfortable that the person she was with was "the one" and who she was meant to be with, though she had tried very hard with me, but always had some doubts. She was not sure she could ever see herself trusting herself and another person and fate that much. She thought that was the primary baggage that she brought to our marriage was that uncertainty, and that lack of openness and vulnerability... which she is absolutely correct about. She was definitely closed off to me in some ways even from very early on, and could be very guarded about her feelings and troubles. This is going to sound, I know, a bit like the "I never loved you" that WAS's throw around, but it wasn't that at all. She granted that she did have those feelings for me at one time... just that she never fully abandoned herself to them and opened herself up fully to the relationship.

At any rate, that was the only really "serious" thing we talked about, and the rest of the night all the way to close was just light hearted fun. We even danced some, which was also nice. Got an Uber home together, and she fell asleep in my arms after some more talking.

Idunno. I think it was a good "step." She really opened up to me about some things in a way she never really has before, at least not since we very first were dating, and maybe not even then. Then her confessions were about things she had done in her past, last night it was really about who she "is" and who she "thinks she is". And I don't think her getting dolled up was any kind of temperature checking... I think she is really trying to see if she can have that kind of sparky relationship with me that she wants, that the MC has told us on some level we are just going to have to "jump in to" at some point. We're both becoming more comfortable with some things-- I've been putting my arm around her some when we're out, something I never did much before and which she has said she'd always wanted, and she's been letting me do so and seems comfortable with it.

But we got a long way to go.

[hoosjim]

Once the heart has radical change, it helps the actions produced.

Is my WW's heart changing? Has it changed? She continues to seem to do "all the right things". Yesterday saw one of my "goals" I set with my DB coach happen, and it looks to be a sign that maybe things have turned...

My goal was that W, not I would initiate or take the initiative on one of our counseling projects. This was a longer term goal since she has been willing but, except for maybe the past week or two, had not looked all that "eager" to do that work. But... yesterday she did. As I wrote in my previous post, she had gone out and bought posterboard and colored pencils for the project, but that seemed kind of, idunno, preliminary, and she had had little bursts of interest pop up previously. Yesterday, however, she came to me and said "Let's sit down and do this". So we sat down on the family room floor, put on some music, and spent the next probably three hours working on our projects together. As posted above, it was a sort of self-exploration exercise intended to help with our respective IC (and, by extension with our MC). It was actually fun, though at times emotional, but she was really into it and kept asking me about mine and wanting to tell me about hers. We both found out a few things about each other that, believe it or not, we didn't know.

I don't want to get my hopes up too much here... it was only a little over two weeks ago that she had a "Setback" on her affair recovery... but, this was something different than we have done before in this process and a willingness/eagerness to "do work" on this that she had not shown to this degree previously.

And, boy, if this IS the start of piecing? It is hard. My emotions still all over the place. Read something in another thread (Holding's, maybe) where the poster who was in piecing said sometimes you almost just wonder if it wouldn't be easier just to drop the whole thing and move on. Almost. And I can definitely sympathize.

[AnotherStander]

I saw Mr. OM there, too! He was driving a truck in the parade and came up to me afterwards and asked me how I was doing and was telling me about the recruiters there to see his son for the game."

I can tell you are really angry. But try to step outside of it for a minute and see it from your son's perspective. Your S doesn't know anything about what's going on. He is on friendly terms with OM. He was taking pictures for the yearbook which means he was probably all over the place and seeing/ talking to a lot of people which apparently included OM. They spoke briefly, and moved on. And this got you so angry that you wanted to punch OM over and over again in the throat. There is literally nothing about that interaction that justifies your anger. So first, ask yourself WHY you are so angry, what are you really angry about? Second, ask yourself if your desire to keep S and OM from ever talking is a reasonable one. And third, if you feel it is a reasonable request, then ask yourself is you want S to know everything, because the only way you can reasonably expect him not to talk to OM is if you explain the entire sitch to him.

But the way things are right now, if OM runs across S during events like this what do you expect him to do, ignore your son and walk the other way? How do you think that would make your son feel, given that he knows nothing about your sitch?

At least W came upstairs right after I went up and put her hand on my shoulder and asked me "Are you okay?" And I kind of played it off and didn't show any anger even though i was SEETHING.

I went back and read your first post again to see if communication has been an issue in your M and it sounds like it has. She could no doubt see you were angry, how could she not? It's very apparent just from reading your post. She asks you about it and you completely shut her out. You retreated inside your walls and pulled up the drawbridge leaving her out in the cold. How do you think that made her feel? Certainly not more connected and intimate with you. What would have been a 180 from your previous behavior in the M? Would it not have been to sit down with her and share your feelings about how angry you were, and why? What people don't seem to realize is sharing your feelings with a loved one doesn't ONLY mean happy feelings. THAT is easy! The hard part is sharing with them when you are angry, sad, depressed, mad, blue, etc. But THAT is what makes people feel connected.

Idunno. I think it was a good "step."

Sounds like it all went quite well! Just keep in mind there usually aren't any big moves in piecing, it's a series of baby steps. It's a long process, don't try to rush it! But it sounds like you are off to a really good start.

[Tread]

I think you have every right to be upset with this man talking to your son. You don't get to screw my W and then come around my family as if nothing happened. OM should have had enough respect to stay away from your son. If he can't respect that boundary, then you may need to tell your children you stay away from him due to him being inappropriate. You don't have to tell about the A. But your children are old enough to know that OM is bad news.

[hoosjim]

But your children are old enough to know that OM is bad news.

Yah, I had thought about this. Just something simple along the lines of: "S17, I know you told me you had talked to OM at homecoming, but I wanted you to know that... he and I are no longer friends" OR "...he is no longer a friend of this family" OR "...he and I have had a falling out"... AND "...and he is someone I'd really rather you not be talking to." Can also tell him "You don't have to be rude or obnoxious, but I'd rather you keep clear of him. I have no arguments with his son, however" (S17 and OM's son are both Senior classmates at the HS).

Oh, and FTR, I am reasonably certain... lets say 98%, that OM never "screwed my W" or had other "sexual relations", though he sure as hell tried to, and they sure as hell talked about it, and they sure as hell were otherwise well across "the line" with their relationship. I did manage over time to gather quite a bit of intel on them and am fairly comfortable with that conclusion. Not that that makes him any less of a sleazebag, mind you...

AnotherStander:

Second, ask yourself if your desire to keep S and OM from ever talking is a reasonable one. And third, if you feel it is a reasonable request, then ask yourself is you want S to know everything, because the only way you can reasonably expect him not to talk to OM is if you explain the entire sitch to him.

But the way things are right now, if OM runs across S during events like this what do you expect him to do, ignore your son and walk the other way? How do you think that would make your son feel, given that he knows nothing about your sitch?

See above response to Tread. I feel like I can make my feelings known to S17 without spilling all of the beans. Could he infer what was going on? Perhaps, though he is not nearly as intuitive WRT such things as his brother. Could he ask "Why" or "What's up with that"? Of course, but I feel like I could appropriately say "The details are between me and him and are unimportant. All you need to know is that sometimes people who you think are your friends sometimes aren't really your friends."

Risks with that, of course, are that S17 reads between the lines, and/or that W doesn't like me bringing it up with S17 (a very very real possibility.

It's very apparent just from reading your post. She asks you about it and you completely shut her out. You retreated inside your walls and pulled up the drawbridge leaving her out in the cold. How do you think that made her feel? Certainly not more connected and intimate with you.

Yes, you are probably right in this. I guess I was afraid to even be discussing OM with her right now... or, more accurately, was afraid to have OM brought up by my son in that context (he actually had taken a couple of pictures of OM's truck in the parade, as well) especially since W had just had the setback 2 weeks ago with bff calling from OM's hangout. I just really feel like that dude and all reminders of him need to be GONE from our lives right now, and that is two great big ones right in my wife's face within a two week span. Even so, it was out there and we should have talked about it, especially given the stage we are currently in. Might also have led to some discussion about appropriate boundaries for S17 to have, if any, regarding OM, and whether or not she thought it okay for me to bring that up with S17 to begin with.

Honestly, and I have not said this to her myself, though MC has said it to me (and I think to her) and I think it is spot-on, but I believe we should just level with our kids about pretty much the whole ball of wax. They are both practically adults, now, and should be able to understand such things. And, hopefully, to learn from them. I have already had conversations with S19 based on my own experiences on the importance of nurturing your relationships with others, especially your significant other, not taking them for granted, keeping things "fun", etc., and staying true to yourself and never stop being "the person you are" on account of any relationship because "the person you are" is usually who your wife/fiancé/GF fell in love with in the first place. But I have not shared the troubles between me and W. I actually think it might be helpful/healthy for them to know what we have been through, that my wisdom comes from having effed up for much of my marriage, and I think it would be helpful for W to be able to say "I made a mistake and had an inappropriate relationship--nonsexual-- with another man, but I realized that that was wrong and how much it would hurt you and Dad and everyone else, and that relationship is over". Helpful in terms of closure and guilt processing (my W is a HUGE guilt internalizer) and also in terms of "keeping her honest." If kids know, removing any opportunity she might have to present OM as a "new relationship", I can guarantee you she would never feel comfortable going back to OM. I would never, ever insist on us doing this, of course, but I can't help thinking it might be a good thing. But I've been wrong about such things in the past and certainly have been no paragon of effective DB-ing/piecing since this whole thing started.

[sandi2]

Hey Jim, sorry I got behind, but I am up to date now. I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised to hear such a positive report about your W. Like you said, I don't want to get my hopes up too much too quickly......but it sounds good.

IMHO, one of the problems that stem from a SSM is that touching becomes less and less. I encourage you to become more comfortable in making non-sexual touches. Begin with those type of everyday, casual touches. A slight touch on her elbow when you pass in the hallway; your hand on the small of her back while walking through a door together; your hand slightly touching her shoulder when you are saying goodbye in the mornings; a slight rub or pat to the center of her back, etc.

Touches that feel more intimate or romantic to women are touching her hair; the back of her neck; anywhere on her face; anywhere on her body except her arm, shoulder, and the center of her back.....if your hand doesn't linger... .

Don't try going from non-sexual to more intimate touching in just a few days, especially if all touching had practically been non-exsistant for some time. You may have to start small and work your way up to the more intimate type of touching.

One tip I'll pass along is to make those touches light. Heaviness or stiffness feels awkward to the one receiving the touches. Don't glare at her to see how she responds. This is the woman who has had children with you, so don't let it make you feel like you are back in 7th grade again. Practice being relaxed and confident. As she becomes more relaxed and receptive to your touches, she will feel more comfortable in something more intimate.

[hoosjim]

You know it's weird. I almost dont know what to do now.

In some ways, my body, brain, and emotions have been on heightened alert for months, now, knowing or at least fearing that my W was still actively engaged in an A with OM. For the past several weeks, say maybe two or three months, I personally have been in somewhat of a better place, convinced that, one way or the other, I would be okay no matter which way my W ultimately turned. But, still, there was, i would say by necessity, a part of me that obviously preferred to have her back as opposed to having her leave, all else being equal. And that part of me continued to struggle with the possibility that and conduct business as if the affair was ongoing.

Now that it genuinely appears to be over... It's like I've been on an adrenaline rush for 8 months and now its gone. I don't want to say I am directionless, but... the "fight or flight" overlay is definitely gone. Much more contemplative now.

And it definitely highlights how the end of an affair does NOT mean an instant reconcilliation or return to happiness. With the end of the affair, I have been "freed" in some ways to more fully contemplate the rest of my life with this woman who betrayed me (and, yes, whom I hurt so badly prior to that betrayal). It makes for some awkward moments and feelings, and I can definitely see now what my wife means when she talks about some things (such as intimate touch) seeming weird or awkward.

I definitely have some "blue" moments... particularly when I try to contemplate where I (and we) are going... and I do in fact get a little thrill or energy boost when she calls me (she called me four times today from work and afterward), and I know that I do in fact still love her but... it's different. I still think our best hope for the greatest happiness will be together, with our family intact, having the kind of fun we have been having recently when we are together but... Ugh. So hard. Still so much work to do. And I am not even really sure where to start. I can see why some folks just throw in the towel, or otherwise cant make it work.

[AnotherStander]

Yah, I had thought about this. Just something simple along the lines of: "S17, I know you told me you had talked to OM at homecoming, but I wanted you to know that... he and I are no longer friends" OR "...he is no longer a friend of this family" OR "...he and I have had a falling out"... AND "...and he is someone I'd really rather you not be talking to." Can also tell him "You don't have to be rude or obnoxious, but I'd rather you keep clear of him. I have no arguments with his son, however"

That sounds like a great approach!

I just really feel like that dude and all reminders of him need to be GONE from our lives right now, and that is two great big ones right in my wife's face within a two week span.

That's not at all unreasonable given what you've been through, and if she is on board with recon then surely she would agree.

...but I believe we should just level with our kids about pretty much the whole ball of wax. They are both practically adults, now, and should be able to understand such things.

Well they will find out sooner or later. My personal take is it's better to tell them yourselves then leave them to try and guess and infer. And like you say, it could be cathartic for your W. You probably should wait until you know your W is 100% on board with recon though, because you don't want to tell your S's everything is better now if there's a chance she'll go AWOL again as that would just really confuse them.

[sandi2]

With the end of the affair, I have been "freed" in some ways to more fully contemplate the rest of my life with this woman who betrayed me (and, yes, whom I hurt so badly prior to that betrayal). It makes for some awkward moments and feelings, and I can definitely see now what my wife means when she talks about some things (such as intimate touch) seeming weird or awkward

I remember when I was still fairly new on the board, that some strong LBH's would talk about my betrayal. I still had the mindset of a WW, so it would really trigger my anger. I would usually refer to all the things my H did before I cheated. Of course, they were quick to let me know that nothing excused or deserved an affair. I didn't like it, but I learned from them.

The reason I refer back to this is b\c it may take time for your W to really grasp the damage she's done. Not that she's not smart enough to realize it, but she has to process a lot. It may come in stages. In my case, I mentally knew that my betrayal was bad.......but emotionally, I felt my H had betrayed me in other ways. Perhaps that was some type of self protection from facing the truth all at once.....IDK.

It took quite some time before I could really accept what I had done to our relationship, b\c I continued to drag up the past and focus on his mistakes. I was trying to blame him for my actions. I mean, I would admit the A, and then quickly add what my H did.....as if it was an equal offense. I think I may have tried to believe it was. Although I was a mature woman, my emotions were causing me to think like an immature teenager.

I don't know if your W will harbor resentments like I did, but IMHO, it's one of the major stumbling blocks for the WW. Having a therapist to work with her through the process of letting go of the past and forgiving you.....will free her to work on the other issues. My false pride (a mask for stubbornness) did not serve me well. However, once I was honest with myself and forgave my H of things in the past....and just let it go, then I was able to feel true remorse for what I had done to him.

Just take this FWIW. These things usually take a lot longer than we expect.

[hoosjim]

So, today will be a big test/step for me. W tells me (told me last night, actually, that she will be "going in to her office" today for a couple of hours to get some work done. I typically have not had too many fears about her being at her office because I know all her coworkers and am well-liked by them, even friends with some, and I always just figured she'd be unlikely to contact or meet OM while she was there. Too big a risk of being caught. Weekends are an entirely different matter. She went a couple weekends back but I knew for sure that that was for sure related to her office's switch over to a new patient intake system and that most of the other admin staff was going to be there.

Today, however, not sure and... I am not going to ask. And this is my test. I am thinking I will not monitor her in any way when she goes, even though it looks and smells a little suspicious, for a couple of reasons, and in the past I might have put on some monitoring just as a spot-check. Thinking this is a trust hurdle I need to be able to get over, and that if she does reconnect with OM I will eventually get more clear signs and find out.

Sandi2 had cautioned me against trusting TOO fast and NEVER monitoring... wondering if anyone thinks I am crazy for not checking up on her and just keeping my mind elsewhere today... as much as my "little voice" is telling me I should.