Limerence and My Situation 5

[25yearsmlc]

OMG what a nightmare.

And your wife is angry at you? Nice lack of self awareness. She's so far over the line she lost sight of it.



I hold onto the unrealistic hope that I never have to meet OW, but then i stop myself and say

"the real to goal is being able to see h & OW and simply not care."

= Detachment, meh, me moving forward in my life, and all the rest...

Here's the reality for me-
When my FIL dies, I will attend his funeral. My FIL has been in my life longer than my own dad was.

When one of our kids marries, or has a child, or when d20 graduates from college (no thanks to h), i will attend and I assume if she's still in h's life, she'll attend as well.

My own boundary is that I will not ruin a funeral, wedding or other celebratory event because of my resentment or pain, however justified it might be.


BUT THIS^^^ AIN'T EASY. And I have not done it yet.

Thank God I have not had to deal with it yet. Thank God h is in Alaska. Seriously.

Your situation is incredibly demanding Park, and your w seems to lack any self awareness of how over the line she is, and is angry at you. Which makes me nuts on your behalf.

I understand you want to reconcile and I accept that. No argument from me (other than my belief your approach is not working).

It's just that she really crosses the line but does not see it that way at all.

You're not alone. There are many of us who have spouses who betrayed us, took money or left or lied to our faces

and justified it. It's a challenge to remember not to project our own values onto our spouses thinking "WE would feel guilty/shame IF WE had done that..." so we assume the other spouse is struggling with it, too.

But if they shared our values, we would not be here.
Park, the only "advice" is to make sure your boys know you are a man who doesn't lose control of himself.

Your boys don't want you to get hurt. It scares them, so keep that in mind.

Good luck.

[Parkema]

Thank you all,

I can't describe how bad this episode was DR'ing up in smoke and her TOTAL lack of respect not only for me BUT my two boy was awful. She pushed the right buttons and I fell for it!

What hits me the most is all it takes is communication, we communicate when we GAL and the changes needed but telling me she's taking boys and AP/LO to X is so hard!

No this was about her selfishness and wanting everything her way or else. Not having any of that behaviour any more especially in front of my kids. I truly feel for them in all this as they just can't understand how their perfect Mum and Dad who were the perfect team have now turned into each others worst enemies SO CONFUSING AND HARD FOR THEM TO SEE.

Sat here now with my boys there with them is excruciating and I just want them with me.

Thanks all again.

Mark.

[lcause]

[quote=Ginger1]Hi Zues, my friend. I just wanted to state for the record I do not agree with what this person is doing. She knew who he was when she married him, hoping he would change. And I don't think she should have an A, obviously.

Hey Ginger, I agree. I would add that in this^^^ scenario, the h did not change and the w was "on notice."

But There are times when one spouse changes, (or reveals a new side to them) and the other partner is stuck with accepting the new crappy deteriorated m, or to leave.

Telling your spouse that if they don't change you "will leave/divorce" is harder and nastier sounding than you might realize. It's also not advised by any MC's (right or wrong). Divorce is not a word to be thrown about lightly, and for many people, the hope that things will improve keeps you hanging around a long time.

Especially when the h says he will change, and does so temporarily but her needs remain unmet,

and if he's the one paying the bills and there are kids at home...

ANYHOW, For ME, it feels like it should be enough to say "h, it really hurts me when you do X" or "I feel like we/our m/family are not a priority, when you make that choice and I'm unhappy".

there are folks here who heard that, and changed for a week...and then reverted. Hoping they could throw crumbs often enough to avoid doing the work their spouse pleaded for.

So if the behavior does not change - it's awfully hard to tell yourself for the rest of your life, "Either divorce - (& deeply wound the kids/mess finances up- or suck it up".


Once the vulnerability sets in, if the temptation arises - the image/fantasy of the OP fixing the sadness (!!) or whatever the issues were, SEEMS a ton easier. And that is why some m's are ripe for A's. And perhaps Park is waiting for the "seems easier" phase to end when reality sets in. I get that.

Because it's statistically rare that someone leaves for an AP and marries them AND is glad of their choices, 5 years later.

So this is not about defending affairs, it's about not seeing them all in the exact same light.
And not prescribing the exact same path for the LBS.

And this^^ is about when an otherwise decent person strays, as opposed to someone who really is not like us & really does not share our values (long term, I mean).

There are disordered people who fake us out, or change on us, and we come to see them as people we cannot actually live with again. Even if they want to reconcile.

PARK, I make no assumption about your wife here^^. From what you post it's obvious you see reason to have faith. Good on you.

There are some LBSers who take on way too much blame for their spouse's choices

and others who have narratives in which they are the hero/victim, and their spouse's who had the affair did it in a vacuum

and is "100% wrong 100% of the time" (that is an actual quote I've seen here a few times.) Seems to me most of us are somewhere in between.

To sum up with a question,

if someone comes here believing a spouse's A is "100% wrong - 100% of the time",

then why come here?

What if there was no change because his needs were not fulfilled either? So in order to get the other to change, we need to change - just like the book says. Of course this does not always work, but I do feel sometimes we do actually blame the LBS a bit too much.

Also what did I just read? How in h3ll is A not 100% wrong 100% of the time? You know, if you are unsatisfied in your relationship, you break up before seeking for others! Sure the needs can of course be unmet and they can feel entitled but that doesn't mean an A is justified. Divorce is the end result much more often than not - so why not take it directly and then engage in whatever relationships you want to have?

[Rose888]

Ugh. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that.

However, since it's likely to come up again, have you considered conceding her point that you'll have to meet OM some day? I don't mean agreeing to meet him right now, I just mean not arguing that you never will. She might be imagining a world in which they are together long term, which means there will be graduations, weddings, etc., where both you and OM will be attending. She might see you arguing about meeting him as pursuit in a way--denying that her relationship with OM is real.

What if you just responded, "Maybe I will, but it doesn't have to be today, and it doesn't have to be at the house"?

That might let you hold fast to your boundary without engaging in the argument.

And I agree with those who say to reassure your sons that nothing bad will happen if you and OM do meet.

[Zues126]

Darn it all Ginger, you dragged me back into posting again. Now I'm following this thread and here I go again...

In my mind there are two separate issues. One is the specific issue at hand, seeing OM or not. The other is how you assert your boundaries and respond to assault. The funny part is that even though the argument was over the first issue, to me the second seems much more important.

In my mind until a divorce is FINAL she is committing adultery. You can spin it any way you want to spin it, but that is what it is. Separated, the marriage was dead, we haven't been like a married couple for years, I separated with you in my mind a long time ago, yadda yadda yadda. You're married. She's cheating. That's it.

Now it's not your job to punish her for it, or throw it in her face, or act holier than thou...but it IS your job to parent your children. I struggled with this at first, how do you teach your kids what you believe without criticizing their mother? I came up with the answer that worked for me. I explain that different people believe different things. For example:

"Kids, different people have different beliefs. I am not proclaiming what I believe to be right, nor what someone else believes to be wrong. Is that clear? What I *AM* doing is sharing with you what I believe, so as you grow older and have to decide what you believe you have been given some examples to work from. What I believe is that marriage is a life long commitment, period. And what I believe is that when you are married you don't get involved with someone else. Does that make sense?"

That's how I handle it. I've had other talks where I explain more about my beliefs, but that is always how I frame it.

As far as when you meet OM, totally up to you. Reasonable, unreasonable, I don't care. It's your boundary, I respect it. Why doesn't she? That's not the real issue. So back to the real issue. Lack of respect for your boundaries and how you respond.

OK, I get why she's angry. Things aren't working the way she wants them to. She wants you chasing after her doing whatever she wants so she feels pursued and can keep being the good guy and making you the villain that was too abusive to remain married to. She wants to avoid consequences. All of that is true.

But she also wants to be in control, and she wants to hurt you because she blames you for her pain, and she wants attention from you because she is still emotionally entangled.

Is this mind reading? Not according to my DB coach. My DB coach taught me something that was so amazing I will never forget it. I'll dig up the quote from last time I posted this:


It turns out that you can indeed discover their motivations when their behavior is specifically aimed towards you. There is a chart that I was given by my DB coach. Based on how YOU feel when they act a certain way, you can determine THEIR motivations. How is this possible? It's because they know you intimately, they know your buttons and what each one does, so when they are doing things strictly for your benefit you actually can tell what they are trying to accomplish. Here is the chart:

You feel: Irritated
Their motivation: Attention

You feel: Insufficient
They feel: Insufficient, desire to prove their value

You feel: Powerless
They feel: Powerless, desire to gain control

You feel: Hurt and/or Angry
They feel: Vindictive, desire for revenge

Couple of examples. I took my kids on a trip once early on. When I dropped the kids off I was only there for 30 seconds, yet she managed to tell the kids about all the things she did over the weekend at a mixed bonfire. It was clear she was aiming this to me. My DB coach asked me how it made me feel. It came down to I felt insufficient, like I was left out, she didn't need me to have a good time. My DB coach pointed out that she probably felt insufficient as I just had a great weekend with my family without her. Another example would be when she took back Sunday nights from me and said she wouldn't allow that again until after court. I felt quite powerless and a bit angry. It was clear her motivation was that she felt she was losing control, and possibly wanted to hurt me as well.


My guess is that you feel hurt/angry, and like you're fighting a power struggle and maybe a bit irritated. So to me this translates to revenge, punishment, desire for control, and a desire for attention. It's amazing how this works.

Now that you know the game, you can choose how to respond. Personally I am one that doesn't want to play. [u]So I would want to show no pain, no irritation, not engage in a control battle, and not pay much attention.[/u]

Instead I'd simply say "I've made my position clear." If there is something more, great. If not I wouldn't explain that if she can't respect my boundary I'd end the conversation, I'd just do it. I'd hang up, walk away, whatever. But I'd do it like I just answered a wrong number.

If you don't pour gas on the fire, the fire will burn itself out.

My XW has been 12 forms of crazy the last few years (read my old threads sometime if you are home sick and have enough dayquil in you to keep you numb), but the crazy is burning out. Why? Because I don't play. No, she didn't come back, but she at least had the opportunity to see what her life was without me, because I wasn't playing these emotional games.

Finally- Lcause, yes, an affair is 100% wrong 100% of the time. I agree with you on this point and appreciate you making it.

The point the others are making is that while certain behavior of others is clearly wrong, at some point that is them and we have to look in the mirror and work on ourselves. If we like what we see, great. If we don't like what we see, then take action to make it better. Oftentimes when we are suffering from pain due to fall out from our actions it is the best time to make changes. And while the affair isn't a consequence of our action, it is a horrible choice that our spouse made, the deteriorated state of our marriage was a situation that we can take some accountability for. When suffering the loss of a M it feels good to know that we identified some of our weaknesses, made improvements, did everything we could to save our M, and did everything we could to prepare for it to be stronger should it be saved, and to prepare for a brighter future with or without the M. This is all.

As for the comment about "cheating is bad, you should divorce first", there are those of us on this forum that think that divorce itself is bad and that ending a marriage and breaking up a family so you can chase the illusion of personal happiness you think is out there is just as destructive and despicable as cheating. None of this "Except for abuse and addition" stuff which can be stretched to apply to 100% of marriages, but simply not ok unless someone is in evident danger. Like taking a human life- it must be done in SELF DEFENSE. Same for me and marriage. End the marriage in self defense. Divorcing because you spin the other person as emotionally abusive for neglecting your needs is like killing someone in self defense because they hurt your feelings. NOT OK. This is not a popular camp I'm in, but here I remain nonetheless. Ginger, we've beat this to death, but for the others I wanted to restate my views. I have more I could say on this topic so don't tempt me please

[Parkema]

Hello All,

I need to thank you all for being here to listen and help in any way you can it amazes me how people I have never met can have so much of their own time invested in ME!

You are an immense support to me and I truly appreciate it.

Didn’t get much sleep last night this episode continued to play out in my mind, due to this it gave me time to analyze the whole issue. Deep down I feel so hurt by her actions, how she continued to berate me in front of my boys even AFTER I asked her to leave, she wouldn’t I couldn’t well throw her out!!!

What was her motivation?
All I know is that it was about her needs, hers and her AP/LO. Did this aid me NO, did this aid my boys NO.

Zeus – You’re spot on. I felt hurt and angry at how her attitude towards us has changed, I’m not sure about power struggle but maybe she feels I no longer am invested as much as I used to be and she needs to “reel me back in” or she just wants to hurt me deeply by flaunting her AP/LO right in front of me (total disrespect again). I regret reacting the way I did to this and could have handled it a lot better BUT will learn from the experience.
You mention a desire for attention – do you mean from her to me or me to her? I must admit I still have times where I’m thinking about her who doesn’t and have not stopped thinking about this episode since it happened. I’m afraid respect from her to me has completely vanished but if I don’t pick her up on this I’ll continue to be seen as a weak man! < That has to change.

Hi Rose – "However, since it's likely to come up again, have you considered conceding her point that you'll have to meet OM some day?" As much as it will hurt I’m not in control of that! WW will quite possibly force the issue, before I thought this wouldn’t happen due to how it affects S8 BUT what I saw last night I feel she’s not too bothered about anybody else’s feelings except hers and her AP/LO. I can’t say to the boys what will happen if we were to meet as I just don’t know. I won’t lie to them.

25 – “There are disordered people who fake us out, or change on us, and we come to see them as people we cannot actually live with again. Even if they want to reconcile.
PARK, I make no assumption about your wife here^^. From what you post it's obvious you see reason to have faith. Good on you.
If someone comes here believing a spouse's A is "100% wrong - 100% of the time", then why come here?”

I agree entirely that 50% of the problems in our MR was my fault and I’m trying to identify this and work on being better BUT you must agree WW also had a responsibility to work on the MR? I wish I had a manual on how to behave in a MR, one for communication, validation LL and so on I didn’t and obviously missed the signs BUT our MR was good it really was or so I thought.

I feel she was pursued by him and didn’t have great boundaries, one thing led to another and we are where we are.

The boys are with her at the FH today and the next couple, I’ll be surprised if I don’t get a text much like this: “If you want the boys come and pick them up. “Watch this space…

Thank you all for your continued support.

M.

[Rose888]

I definitely don't suggest lying to them. I was just assuming that saying something like, "I am very angry at OM, and I would rather not meet him, but if I do, nothing bad will happen. I might be upset or sad, but I'm not going to start a fight" would be a safe and true thing to say.

[Parkema]

Hello All,

I was wondering all's stance to how I intend to continue to manage my situation after the recent events! All comments welcome.

Is this just a bump in the road for me?
Am I doing something that’s just not working?

For me the whole episode last night was down to a lack of respect for my needs and boundaries with regards to me moving along with my life. There has been a definite feel of detachment from me to her and obviously the space that comes with it.
Prior to the blow-up about meeting AP/LO we had a civil F2F when picking the boys stuff up from my home, the conversation was light and in fact I made WW laugh twice! Something I haven’t seen in a while… I see trends happening with her after certain responses or actions, these are basically when she gets the feeling I’m either not allowing her her way OR when she see me moving on.

Whilst we were talking she asked what I did when I GAL over night? I said “I’ll tell you if you want to know” but she basically said “you don’t have to” I replied with “okay I won’t” and left it at that. The atmosphere changed in an instant and I knew something triggered in her as when I said goodbye to the boys in the car she didn’t roller her window down as she normally would.

I may be mind reading BUT have said in previous posts that I can almost predict the when these “flare-ups” are likely to occur.

I intend to keep doing what I’m doing with regards to my DR methods, expect minimal to no contact but NEVER pursue a D. It was an eye-opener in respect to how deeply she is in L with her AP/LO in the fact she wasn’t bothered in running over anybody kids included to stress her point.

It’s all down to her now to see where this is going as I don’t intend to face these type of discussions going forwards and if that means absolute no contact which would be detrimental to the kids then so be it.

She’s just hardened me a little more towards her but still feel her confusion and hurt when a comment on how MY life is going with her surprised when I tell her its going well.

I intend to leave this a month and update how it's gone.

It’s been 9-months since I moved out of the FM and this A is still in its infancy, I need to keep sight that I’m on her timescale not mine and patience with good DR’ing will get me through this for better or worse. Where have I said that before…?

M.

[EastTN]

Am I doing something that’s just not working?

I think most of us would say "yes" to that, but we don't see your day to day, only what you post here. I know your original plan can basically be summed up as "being there for her" in an attempt to show you're a better choice than the AP. Personally, I think that leads to outcomes like the below, but in the end, YOUR feelings on the subject are what matter here. Do you feel like what you're doing is working?

For me the whole episode last night was down to a lack of respect for my needs and boundaries with regards to me moving along with my life. There has been a definite feel of detachment from me to her and obviously the space that comes with it.

This is where I think sandi would point out that she DOESN'T respect you. At all.

So why do you expect her to respect your needs and boundaries? She blew up your M, your family, put your boys in an uncomfortable situation by moving OM into your house, disrespected you at every turn. Yes, of course she's detached, she's in an active affair!

You're expecting her to be your W and act like your W, but she's not your W, and hasn't been for some time. That might change someday. Or it might not. The only thing that you have any control over is you, and spending your time worrying about what she wants and she's doing isn't going to do you any favors.

[MoveFrwd]

Now I don’t intend to come into contact with AP/LO at all as I feel this is helping me stop the pictures of them together as I can’t put a face to that person, I mentioned that I will not come into contact with him and that there is no need for us to meet. I feel this is just another way for my WW to make her life much easier.

I get some of what you are saying. But Im having trouble really understanding how this plays out practically. Youve posted several times that you are positive that this R will end. Maybe, maybe not. I was positive my ex's relationship with the AP would end, and here they are, still married a couple years later.

I dont like him, Im not going to hang out with him, but I know that no matter what my opinion is, he is in my children's lives. If they have a soccer game or a dance recital or a parent teacher conference, he is going to be there. Me suggesting I will never meet him is just putting my head in the sand.

Let's say hes at their house when you drop the kids off....or he answers the door even? Then what? Are you going to turn and run away with them?

I understand the hurt place where you are coming from. And I certainly dont believe that you need to spend any time with him. But I feel like pretending he doesnt exist is doing yourself a disservice by giving him that power over you.

Both boys in absolute bits as the argument went on and crying uncontrollably, I tried to keep my cool and did to a degree until she started getting louder and more aggressive showing no respect for any of us.

What was your role? How could you behave differently? I like AS's suggestion of walking away once things are elevated, especially in front of the kids. How does this encounter align with your goals of fatherhood? Whats most important to you? What hill are you willing to die on?